A Conversation with Nick Crawford of Twist
Nick Crawford of Twist Consultancy brought his British reserve and sly humor to a fun, rambling conversation about marketing, email, clients, agencies and wildlife.
Nick figures he's a Hufflepuff, and it showed in his generous views on the challenges and opportunities of email marketing.
We went down any number of rabbit holes in search of insight. Topics: email, work, real-time email, customers, people, business, content, view, charity, relevance, conversation, personalization, writing, being nice, relationships.
TRANSCRIPT
Matthew Dunn
Good morning or in my guests case, afternoon This is Dr. Matthew Dunn hosted the future of email marketing. And my guest today is Nick Crawford, owner and principal consultant of twist consultancy. Nick, welcome. Glad you glad you accepted the invitation to join me and talk today.
Nick Crawford
Now it's an honor. Thank you very much for inviting me.
Matthew Dunn
Tell them tell people a bit about twist. And then we'll delve into your very deep past with email after that.
Nick Crawford
Yeah, so so twist is, is my consultancy, we hit five years in June. And the premise really, so kind of my background is a mixture of kind of vendor agency and client side. But twist for me is all about how do you engage and create more relevant marketing. So we have a strap line that runs you know, relevance engages and engagement converts. And so although my background is email, it's important to see where email sits in the integrated marketing mix. And really, a lot of great marketing is more about the planning, and really trying to understand your customer. And then worrying about what channel you're putting in. So having a blend of that have multiple channel experience, but with that real focus on email, because it creates relationships better than any channel. I think. That's that's kind of that's the mix that we bring.
Matthew Dunn
She's on that last statement for a second. He you know, emails, strength at creating relationships. How come? And well? Yep, good. Yeah. So
Nick Crawford
I think because it's one of the few channels that you can directly talk to your own customers. So yeah, that's not belittling the other channel. So So show in terms of being able to find new reach of being able to create that awareness, it doesn't matter than anywhere else. And your email really struggles in those kind of the top part of those, those funnels for and certainly, if you're in a acquisition stage, slightly easier for business business, but business consumer almost impossible to do by email, right. But actually, once somebody has become aware of you and put their hand up and said, I would like to learn a little bit more about you, that ability to be able to kind of both speak directly to them. And also to be able to understand how they have behaved with your business, what their context is. And to be able to tailor those messages is far more in the marketers control within email than probably any other channel. So, you know, okay, you can have web variation. You can have web personalization, for example, but actually, that will still need to kind of work at scale, whereas email pretty much you know, okay, your mass market newsletter, can still be absolutely tailored to say, What did you ask click on? Or have you got something in the basket? Your tactical emails actually misses what you did before or what you've engaged with? And then your trigger almost your one to ones you've just done something? Or this is your life stage? Yeah, actually, you know, that level of control is, you know, is where email really plays to its strength.
Matthew Dunn
Okay, okay. And on. So what I hear you saying that, that seems like really good advice for listeners is, is don't just think of email in isolation. For sure, for sure. But think in terms of that strength of good Oh, calm conversation or relationship building on once once they've said as they as you said, stick their hand up and say, Yeah, I do want to hear more about your or I have bought something from you. And maybe I'll consider it a buying or doing doing more on Okay, yeah, tell it tell us a bit about the either customer base or favorite customers for you and twist.
Nick Crawford
Um, so I'm very lucky that I kind of work across a mixture of customers. So I do a lot of work at the moment with wildlife charity. So the RSPB, which is the Royal Society for the Prevention, for protection of birds. Cool, they have expanded out to those kind of wildlife as a whole. Yeah. And that's been really interesting for me, so I've kind of worked with them for the for the last three years, both in terms of kind of channel platform, the art of the possible email, as well as content specialisms for for email. And so that's all about the supporter experience. So actually, this is not necessarily selling you something this is a service that they're using, but this is I want to support you and how best can the organization promote the right kind of support in the right way for that for that individual. So it's a very different mindset than, you know coming out of Morgan measurable operations?
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, yeah, I'm actually I'm really glad that I want. I'm glad to hear that you're Yeah, you're, you're helping them because so many, so many charities and nonprofits struggle. They struggle partially to find the expertise and partially to admit that they also need to have some expertise and apply some expertise in that relationship, building their claws alone is probably not sufficient.
Nick Crawford
Yeah. And actually find that that's an internal conversation as much as the owl. So you've got the, the conservation and the science, they're saying, This is the most important thing, because this is what makes a difference. Yeah. And then you've got the fundraising teams again, but without the revenue. Yeah, all that work can happen. And so this is this kind of sometimes not so nice Yin Yang, that kind of needs to happen, but they they absolutely need to live live coexist.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, absolutely. And and I want to take it in sort of a tactical direction to email and pick up what was the name of the organization again,
Nick Crawford
says the RSPB RSPB. Yes. And on all sides for the protection of birds,
Matthew Dunn
and you said expanded out and it's you know, wildlife habitat, etc. Do they get involved in, in land? land conservation as well? Yeah, so
Nick Crawford
the probably the largest nature conservation charity, globally, in terms of the width, so yeah, land acquisition, species control habitat returns, as well as kind of education and the citizen science parts. So there's one of the biggest things certainly in the UK, everyone will know this, but they have a big garden birdwatch? So for one hour, in January, the nation is asked to count and record how many birds they see in the garden. Yeah, as a way of kind of bring everyone together a way of raising awareness. And clearly, in these kind of lockdown times everyone has become more aware of their green spaces and the nature that's around them and the benefit that it gives you. Yeah, it's been the best year ever that we've had in terms of numbers and volume, but it's a way of being it's going to measure the decline and or increase of certain populations. But if you imagine, you know, one person kind of doing that count, gives you a view. Yeah, this year, we had over a million people actually submit their accounts for that view of the population becomes really meaningful from a scientific point of view as well.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, and that, that's brilliant, the, you know, simultaneous, for an hour, right, talk and talk about a talk about a sample set. Um, I, I'm curious to delve into your thinking a bit of the advice that you give them about that, um, that tension between keeping, keeping and building a relationship and nagging people, which tends to backfire on the relationships, like, I may agree with your cause, let's call it wildlife passion of mine, as well. But if you email me, you know, every hour, it's not gonna last, like, how do you tell them to navigate? How do you help them navigate that? Yeah.
Nick Crawford
So there's a couple of considerations. One, and this is this is the same for a lot of businesses, there are lots of parts of the organization that that want to get their message out front and center as a priority. So you know, within within the organization, you can have bought something from their shop and support it that way, you can become a member. So you've an ongoing kind of revenue that's coming in, you can give to an appeal or a donation or a raffle, you can campaign so your time they've got reserved, so land, they can go and see. So events and visitors. So there are a number of different ways that you can support. And each of those parts of the organization want to go, but mine is important. I want to get out to the supports and tell them so there's a balance to be had across all of that messaging. Excuse me. And there's also then this balance between actually any of those may be relevant at any moment in time, but bring them all together at the same time. Suddenly, they're not relevant as a supporter, I'm now absolutely getting bombarded. So what we're doing quite a lot of work with is trying to understand the best supporter journey based on where you start. And where you get to so that the short term view is what if I bought from the shop, I've just talked to you about shop items, or if I've given to an appeal, or just talk to you about an appeal items, okay, but actually, can we get smarter with that and go, Well, actually, if I bought something from a shop that's Puffin related, who doesn't love a Puffin? And actually, we've now got an appeal that's kind of seabed related or Puffin specific, actually, that probably is more relevant than not so introducing that as a way that you can help. Yeah, allows it on my journey. Conversely, actually, if I bought we shop, don't just tell me about giving actually allow me to understand the choices that I have. And then based on what I read, what I click my action with that that interaction Then start to segment and target me and go that way. And that's that's how we were trying to use email almost as a Harry Potter sorting hat to actually go. What have you done? up? Yeah, to kind of make it as relevant as Yeah,
yeah.
Matthew Dunn
Okay, well, what else? What else? What else would you put yourself in?
Nick Crawford
Um was it Hufflepuff? Yeah. Gentle the one No, no Slytherin for me
Matthew Dunn
extraordinarily extraordinarily nice guy, I'm not sure they wouldn't have stuck me slithering to be honest.
Um,
Matthew Dunn
this is a fascinating on X ray to put on on email to talk about a nonprofit because it's so easy to go down the rabbit hole of bi and commercial and purchase and and that, and at the same time, that's not what the long term relationship with the customer is really about. And, and for your, you know, we'll call a wildlife nonprofit. They're they're thinking in terms of relationship, but they've got to earn that space in the head and the inbox. Yeah, as well.
Nick Crawford
Yeah. Because you've, you've got, you know, not only vying for attention for other charities, you know, there's no bad charities. So where do I spend my money or my time, right, but also, you've got that share of wallet of actually, you know, and again, the last year where a lot of people have had to become more frugal, and, you know, cash is a is a more sensitive subject,
actually, can
Nick Crawford
I afford to give for something that potentially is a nice to have, rather than an essential? So this is, you know, there are it's the same, you know, very similar issues to lots of business, it's just that, you know, there's a different filter that you need to put on it sometimes. Yeah. And like, yeah, charity can learn or third, the third sector can learn from commerce can learn from Yeah, from commercial, etc, etc.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah. And everywhere, a fashion and you brought you bring to this conversation, considerable experience with business, your commercial clients as well, correct?
Nick Crawford
Yeah, absolutely. So I've had the pleasure of kind of working across automotive Travel and Leisure, gaming, as well as kind of commerce sites. So yeah, it's fascinating. So in a really, as a kind of really good example, where that kind of cross learning works. A few years ago, web personalization, email to web was kind of a big thing. It's not not there's not such a big thing. We just still haven't cracked it properly. But it was kind of first introduced, and that was the new kind of shiny object. Yeah. And so lots of kind of commerce sites were going actually how can we personalize what's that kind of based on you then talk to a gaming client? So you know, like the likes of coral gala? Or bet Fred or, you know, they're kind of big online gambling sites? And their question is not, what's the personalization? Because they know their customers so well, they know exactly depending on where you start. Are you kind of on slots? Or you're on football, soccer? Or are you on, you know, horse racing, they know what you're most likely to do next. They know what your amounts are, they really have a really rich view of of their kind of customer behavior. So that question is not what do I personalize with their question was how fast can we get that personalization? If I have it in match, if I want to put new ones in front of someone by text? You know, half time How can I do that? You know, it's it's the same issue but in a really different way. And that's that's the fun of kind of working cross sector.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, yeah. Seriously on and on online betting is an interesting one for the me for the US audience. A lot of a lot of online gambling, no, it should be a lot a lot different different regulatory mindset but but then we have this entire we have these collections of of gambling called Vegas in Atlantic City and places like that, where where they do this stuff to a fairly well and I hadn't I hadn't ever thought of that but right that you're right there their knowledge of their customer. With that. Do you know us use your card so you can x y and Z's copy extraordinary. You could well you could do a heck of a paper right while wildlife and the other wildlife and
Nick Crawford
the two are this Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely.
Matthew Dunn
Fascinating. Um, and at the same time, the same the same challenge how do how do you earn the you know, or the attention or in the spot in the inbox? I'm curious your thoughts about one thing, because when you're talking about your your wildlife client, this really struck me there's a real building a ship in a bottle. Challenge on with the email piece of marketing and others of accumulating knowledge about that customer, it's not like we're gonna sit down and fill out a 30 page questionnaire telling you everything's like, comes along a little bit at a time, even the gambling clients are gathering that with cards or swipes or, or whatever else, but they're getting it a little bit of a time and building up that picture and hopefully evolving that picture as you go along. It's not easy.
Nick Crawford
No, it's it's not. And the because it's not easy, or perhaps because it become it can become very complicated very quickly. Yes, it then can become paralyzing. Or actually, you have, you have a lovely big ambition. And yet, you've come out of a lovely two day strategy session and you flip charts or failed, and that's great. And then you sit down and go, but where do I actually start? And then how do we deal with these kind of fails? as a as a strategy is that you saw as being the biggest frustration you can have, you know, how do we actually turn this into activity. And the trick there is you've got to break it down into manageable bite size chunks. So So for me, there's a there's a couple of considerations from a strategic level one is, what do we know about the customer? Not necessarily what they've told us, but what do we know about them? So let's, let's get let's go commerce, just to kind of switch it up. So you know, are they have they bought from us? Have they used us in any way? Yeah, have they used this once? Are they multiple? Are they lapsing? Can we see and understand that because that customer lifestyle? stage segmentation allows you to be more relevant than if you just treat everyone in the same way, don't tell your prospects, the same thing you're telling your first time customers don't tell you first time customers the same thing you're telling your laptops? So that's something that everyone can pretty much understand from a logic, yep, I can understand why there needs to be a different conversation. Can I recognize it within my data, it's probably easier because it's transactionally based rather than anything else, and it starts everyone on the road of segmentation as a as a, as a as a journey to take.
Matthew Dunn
There's that there's this depth before that problem. I'm curious about your thoughts on especially, especially now and the step before that is cat, can you? How do you know? How do you know who they are? in the first place in order to ferret out that that you have you bought before? Have you been a customer before distinction and what I'm alluding to there is is is our dawning awareness of privacy and and data control, and the sometimes tenuous and even difficult identity barrier between a visitor customer and and our business or charity or whatever. Yeah,
Nick Crawford
no, no, absolutely. And I guess in part, that's why I love email, because actually, you by default, you're gonna step on from Yeah, because you have to put the hand up, or you have to at least know known who they are. Right? But yeah, so. So in that kind of awareness piece. So, and this is where slightly programmatic and social have got themselves a bit of a bad reputation, because the promise was that that could all be done. But it's very smoke and mirrors. And actually, with the new cookie regulations coming in, etc, progress is becoming more and more kind of top of mind, that becomes harder and harder to actually do so. So the flip side of that, potentially is, is that you kind of have to work to your your kind of biggest cohort. So you know, from a look alike approach. So actually, if I don't know anything about this individual, let's say that, you know, from a search point of view, yes, you can try and control search, but actually, they've come to the website, how can I? How can I give them a journey that's at least going to be slightly relevant to them? So can I within the web architecture kind of go? Are you new? Or are you just and can we give him some journeys to start to take to at least start to kind of close down the type of content? Or can I, at least surface my most common of or frequently asked, or, you know, some the content, we're going to get to the Richard pages, but make that really easy to find first? Yeah. And, but where the value that says, actually, yeah, we want to be as relevant as we can to you. Give us a little bit of information and allow us to kind of then be able to tailor that for you. I don't know many people that aren't willing to give something in return. So actually, if if, you know, let's say I've come to a Travel and Leisure site, and I'm being asked, you know, do you love the sea? Or do you love the countryside and actually give us a little bit of information and we'll be able to kind of tailor it? Yeah, then absolutely. Because, you know, I know it's gonna make my life easier, but it's when you go, here's a form fill it out. But yeah, I have no value binder you go. I don't think so.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, I don't I don't think so. Yeah, yeah. They'd cut that tendency, that sort of lunch of we want to tell you everything. Before we even did. Hello. Hello, what's your name on? tide it my friend Ty Giuliani calls it the value vomit. Hi.
Nick Crawford
Simple version that is is where the carousel came from, isn't it? Actually, we don't know what you want to see. So we're going to use a piece of real estate. They're just trying to give you everything. Yeah. Whereas actually, if you had kind of three choices, and you were using an email, then we are self segmentation. Which of these three things are you interested in? Click on the one I now know, I can use it again. Even if you're anonymous to me, I know what group you're in. Yeah. And actually, to be to be a bit more explicit about asking information and asking for choice. Yeah, is not necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, no, yeah, I
Matthew Dunn
appreciate it. I appreciate the upfront candid, you know, we're doing this so that we can better you know, better do that you have to give, I have to give Google some, some points for having for having done that consistently, pretty well, at least in some of their main properties. You know, you get that. If you if you search on, I don't know, fly fishing gear, you're gonna see some on the side. And we all we're all comfortable, relatively comfortable with that equation now. Yeah. Yeah. And and if they, if they're accumulating pieces as they go along, oh, he asked about this. No, he asked about that, oh, he asked about that.
Nick Crawford
The trick then, is not to keep doing it if you don't get further engagement. So you know, I'm buying Hello Kitty stuff for my daughter five years ago. He doesn't want it and I definitely don't want to see that behavior because you've got nothing else. Whereas if you go well, let's show it is their engagement right? Let's keep showing if they don't engagement, what might be the alternative?
Matthew Dunn
Yes, that's where the Smart Start to come in. And and and whether it's going to be the you alluded to it right that the shift away from third party cookies on increasing privacy, the the mechanisms, and instruments for listening for that behavior, are going to have to get ready tooled, it's not going to be as simple as it was once upon a time. What I when one of my sons went off to college, and started actually spending money. He used my Amazon account, which I'm fine with, so he could see everything I bought, I could see everything but but I would notice Why is such and such showing up in a web browser. Oh, Hunter, were you were you looking for, you know, whatever, you know, music gear, is that why I'm seeing guitars all of a sudden. So I'm sure we're confused the heck out of out of someone. So
Nick Crawford
that's your story, and you're sticking to it.
Matthew Dunn
That's my story. And I'm sticking to absolutely right. It does make it does make you know, holiday Christmas surprises a little more difficult, I've got to say. Um, so let's go down, let's go down the the email rabbit hole a bit more specifically, a fair, a fair spread of the audience for this podcast are more likely to be, you know, entrepreneurs, small and medium sized businesses may not have thought about their email program at the kind of scale of some of your clients. And I'm wondering what your advice to start climbing email mountain looks like?
Nick Crawford
Yeah, so. And again, certainly for startups, email doesn't tend to be where they kind of go, because it's all purely acquisition, it's absolutely about getting the The advice I'd give is ensure that you've got a way to start building your email base. So even if you don't think you're going to use it straight off, actually, everyone coming to the website, everyone interacting with you, physically, an event doesn't really matter being saying, we would like to keep in touch, we'd like to kind of, you know, be able to share his show, as as required. Because certainly, in those kind of early stages, you know, the the view is, well, if I've got 1000s of it's not worthwhile, but actually, for a lot of businesses, another two or three clients use a platform makes a difference. So actually, if I've got 50 people that I'm talking to sensibly, then actually only need one of those to actually go Do you know, I will take that extra their sword start doing that, or tell my network about it to make a difference. So So, so although it might seem you're nowhere near as kind of worthwhile as the kind of big volume stuff in other channels, yeah, make sure you're capturing it, make sure that you nurture it, because actually, that will ramp up fairly quickly. And it becomes the start of a 10. And actually, it's an ongoing relationship and conversation and therefore it's likely to bear fruit much more than you know. Paying for for another? Yeah. Ad somewhere.
Matthew Dunn
That's really good advice. And it also implicit there is. You can't You can't buy those relationships from some guy off the back of a truck. Right? Hey, I've got, you know, a million addresses in this industry. But aside from it's not legal, it's not a good idea. Yeah, you have less of a relationship with those folks on that list. And then the guy who landed on your website and spends, you know, spends a minute there and fills in the box. Yeah. Right. Right. How much? How much data? should someone attach in that initial? You know, Hey, would you do want to be on our list and hear more from us?
Nick Crawford
Yeah, so so I do, you know, and I know that there'll be a large group going, now you've got to get it first, or you've got nothing. But I do absolutely believe that. Minimal requirement, as it started is the better way forward. So your first name, surname, email address, that's all you necessarily need to kind of start with, because it allows you to at least kind of recognize who they are, and continue that conversation. So the trick is, as somebody's gone, you've made it very easy for them to be able to kind of start that relationship, not give them a kind of big form preference enter form to kind of fill in Yeah, you're up and running. The trick, then is you're welcome journey. So don't drop them straight to your newsletter, then just go generic. But that's and go, thank you. Yeah. And if you've got some idea of the source that they signed up from what you know, is it after reading your blog, was it on the homepage, what if you've got that kind of insight that you can offer, reference it and use it, but then within the first couple of weeks and go, we'd like to know a little bit more about you, we'd like to get to make sure that we're only sending you relevant and important information. So here's another bit another small form to kind of fill in, or actually, here's our preference, enter. So you can say, these are the things I'm interested in, I did a lot of work with Travelodge who are a big budget, or probably the largest budget hotel chain in the UK. And we introduced the preference center for them. So that as well as kind of channels specific, it also allows you to say, your business or leisure, because actually what's important to somebody else in business, your Wi Fi parking. breadth is available availability is very different from family, which is comfort size room, mec, etc. We then also kind of asked for a date of birth, we did that with the value exchange and going yeah, we would love to be able to give you something nice on your birthday. So absolutely upfront explicit, but then meant that we've got some kind of demographic data. And also we could then actually, once a year, give a reason to speak to someone who we wouldn't necessarily met have a reason to otherwise so. So again, just that value exchange. work when you
Matthew Dunn
won when you when you suggested the birthday, was their internal resistance asking the question.
Nick Crawford
The question it was, well, why is it Why Why? What, why? What's the value of that? Okay, because, but from a from a processing, and a business point of view? Yeah. I don't need your birthday for you to be able to book a room with me. Yeah, no, actually that mindset, that kind of nice commercial kind of, you know, black and white. Yeah, that's great. But actually, if I keep sending you stuff, because you don't need anything, what are you gonna do? Yeah, if I send you stuff that actually is for you tailored to you, what are you gonna do? Okay. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing that Yeah, and again, probably market market is the worst for it is we kind of come into work. And we take off our consumer hat, we put our marketer hat on and go, that I'm now going to talk at you and I'm going to just tell you stuff, and you are going to listen and this is the best news you've ever heard. And then you've got to look at your your phone and go rubbish rubbish, rubbish, rubbish, rubbish, rubbish. So yeah, that's the trick is to remember what it's like to be a consumer.
Matthew Dunn
Good advice. Second question about the birthday on how how much? How successfully what percentage of people say oh, yeah, I understand. And here you go.
Nick Crawford
Yeah. So we had something so we didn't make it mandatory. There's no need. Yeah. But we had from memory, something like an 85 90%. Take up on that. Because that's we have also trained our consumers that if I give my birthday, yeah, probably I'm going to get a discount or an offer or free something. Yeah. Why would I? Why wouldn't I? Yeah, it was there was no issue in somebody's kind of giving that information.
Matthew Dunn
I it's wonderful to hear. We've got a we live in We live in a town called Bellingham Washington North sort of northwest corner of the US. And we've got a fantastic local bookstore at village books. And they're the postcard comes in the mail, right before the week or so before the birthday, you know, here's your here's your discount, and 20 plus years or whatever, I really expect that convicted card. And I will now
Nick Crawford
be upset if it didn't come.
Matthew Dunn
Oh, yeah, I mean, it's actually become part of the brand and stuff like that. So you're right, the consumer expectation is there. But going ahead and delivering on it, is is pretty darn important. Because I suspect if they'd asked my birthday, and then never done anything with it, if they ever asked again, I'd say like, yeah, yeah, no, you didn't care enough to do anything about it?
Nick Crawford
Yeah. And that's even even more important if you're ever doing any survey work. So yeah, surveys, again, are thick and fast. And if a consumer can't see that the effort that they've put in is somehow manifested in in change in the real world. Yeah, you start to kind of lose. So yes, you can incentivize it. And you know, that's a slightly different conversation. But that kind of, you know, we really do, can we do we really do want to kind of understand, yeah, so we, and then somebody starts to see change, you know, is, is really important. So,
Matthew Dunn
hmm. I mean, you'd mentioned earlier how easy it is to end up in, in paralysis, you know, come back from the flip charts. Where do we start, and even something as simple as your first name, last name, email address in any of let's add Riyadh birthday to the mix, like, on the one hand, you can gather an astonishing amount of data without asking, on the other hand, people will only surrender so much at a time. By it's such a, it's such a mess. It's It's so hard to start accumulating that picture accumulating that knowledge about about a process about customers about prospects about you know, the people that you're actually relating to at the other end of that pipeline. Like, howdy, how do you slice up that elephant? So you eat a bite at a time?
Nick Crawford
Yeah, so I think one of the ways to do that is to ask the question, if I had this information, what would I do with it? Because I stopped you just collecting anything and everything. Yeah, we've got an opportunity to collect, certainly, when you're dealing with kind of multiple parts of the business again, see previous comment about one wants their message out there, everyone wants to gather their and get their kind of data in, you know, how much you spend? What are you doing? What's of interest to you? Where do you go? Yeah, so actually, that's one way of filtering and go, if we have this, do we actually have the mechanism to make some kind of content variation? Yeah, so if I'm asking for location, um, I, I've got location based content that I can give, I have great, then you can, and that then feeds back into the reason we ask this is, yeah, so that, you know, one of the great ways of kind of getting over that from the mechanics in the form is to have that little pop up that says, This is why we're asking this, this is how we're going to use it, this is what we've got. Because then for those that are more cautious, it gives that kind of reassurance that there's a kind of worthwhile, right. So that's kind of that that that helps to filter. And then the second one is to go, okay, what's going to make the biggest difference first. So, you know, we kind of come back to this live stage. So actually, if I've got some basic segmentation that says, I know that 40% of my customers have only users once, or 40% of my support is going back to the charity, have bought from the shop and never done anything else. Yeah. And I know that 20% of my base are kind of regular, then I know the biggest differences in that is in that first or second, whatever it is use purchase, etc. So that's where my focus needs to be. So that's the next thing that I tackle. So what do I need to know about that group, to allow me to kind of make a difference? And that's you can then start to chunk down the data that you're assigned to ingest and kind of asked for on that drip feed basis.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, yeah. And and implicitly what you said, think in terms of the long term relationship you want with him, not just how to tailor You know, this first message here. I I regret that I didn't book market because you know, you think you're gonna remember where you saw something? And of course, you never do, because we're all overwhelmed. But I chanced across a conversation on video somewhere. And this is probably four or five years ago, seriously. And it was a restaurant tour, talking with a guy who was a restaurateur had become really a consultant and advisor to restaurants and the advisor. He just whipped it off in a minute or two, he had this extraordinary, extraordinary burst out of his mouth. He said, Okay, look, if you want to succeed in the restaurant business, and he just went through it step by step, he said, you know, you've got to have a special that gets people in the door for the first time. You go over you talk with them personally say thanks for coming to my restaurant. You know, here's a no, bring it back halfway. Your next dinner, he just went through this structured sequence. And he said, if you can get someone coming back to your restaurant and having a really great experience there, three or four times, he had a number, he said, they're going to become a regular Yeah. And you're going to succeed. He said, If you think of making profit on every meal, every time someone walks in, whether it's the first time or fourth time or fifth time, you're probably not going to succeed, because you're focused on you know, the, the cost of the meal. And it's really the cost of getting them back in the door, here, over and over. So you become a habit that you need to focus on, like, wow, is that insightful? How do you make them? You know, how do you earn that space? Yeah, in the head that, you know, that, uh, you know, wildlife conservation, non non nonprofit needs to earn as well. Um, that leads me to, I was curious to talk to you, because I was looking, you know, looking at your background and sort of real wide range of parts of the marketing world that you've that you've touched on in your career. And let's focus on that wildlife. Wildlife grip, again, because it's just so much fun to not talk about business selling widgets for change. I'm have the conviction that we're in a big slow shift from, from print to media on and what's going to move me about, you know, the organization that helps preserve lands here. They could they could bore me to death with words, but one picture is probably going to make me go Oh, yeah, I know that place on and, and we consume media differently, faster, more readily than, than print these days. And at the same time, here's the email, honestly, to me struggling with that equation emails, still, to me very copy centric. And I'm not saying copy doesn't matter. But I'm saying email tends to be words, words, words are decorated with a couple of pictures and hit send, and off you go and do the same thing. Again, it irks the bejesus out of me because I think we're missing an opportunity reactions. Yep.
Nick Crawford
So two answers, one, I pretty much agree in terms of so one of my mantras for email is less is often more so actually reduce. So. So again, think about your own consumer behavior. When you look in email, how many times do you read verbatim the words you don't use scattered? So actually, you know, that mechanics of email is, we know that you absorb image first title, subtitle bullets, and then any copy. So be aware of that. So actually, I think it's fair. So we, the the, one of the kind of trends across 2019 2020 is far more visual emails as a whole, you know, that certainly, it helped in part, I think, the mobile view, but actually, you've got longer deeper, richer, Hero images, they're kind of really in that use of kind of animation is kind of very much kind of back in. So it's becoming a little bit of an art form, as well as a kind of a medium. Yeah, I don't think there's any kind of bad thing. And I think one of the, the places that email will end up going is to be far more interactive in itself. So whether that's you're scratching, whether you're you know, so when I'm kind of grows out for something around that, that actually allows you to interact to tab with the email, combined with the ability to change content on open rather than send. So actually, if I'm at the beginning of the day, I get a different message from the end of the day, all those things will kind of will help me I have a new life. And I think it will move away from being transactional. So WhatsApp will kind of continue to be the transactional SMS will continue to be the you've got a person arriving, your appointment is etc. So I think that's kind of part of it. And I think the second part is that actually, email is a fantastic signpost to the content. So actually, you know, we're not yet embedding video in in email, because not every client supports it. And it's, you know, what one person sees is not another. So from a from a developer's point of view, it is a nightmare is a nightmare. But putting that animated, if that says here is the video content to then go and find it. Yeah, is the thing that kind of really works. The only kind of contrary part I'll give you to your statement is that I still absolutely think there is a place for print. And actually as it's become less common. I think it's become a little bit more special. And we've certainly seen that, certainly, but you're in terms of our appeal journey. Yeah, having a beautifully created five page booklet. Yeah. And again, from an HR point of view, we've got a lot of really rich, if you imagine National Geographic is probably kind of something that everyone kind of understands here a similar kind of richness of image and, and beauty of nature. Yeah, to be able to kind of see that, and then have that followed up by an email that says and here's how you can next do something. Those two things absolutely are greater than the sum of each of those things. Individual So combining those channels to work together Nice. Yeah, it's still a real place for that. Yeah,
Matthew Dunn
I mean, there's a there's a we'll talk about we'll talk about email and paid newsletters and that whole that whole thing in a second that there, this is my lead into it. There's a writer named Ben Thompson who writes a newsletter called strategic curry. And I pay for a subscription to Steph Curry every month. And I practically pounce on Ben's email almost every morning. Like like, oh, there's your tech curry. ignore everything else read this thing. And it's long like his his emails long and thoughtful and wonderful writer on and and you're talking hundreds and hundreds of words almost every day. And I read almost every word almost every day, which is like, fascinating. There is a place for there is a place for verbiage. And there is a place for copy. And there is a place for writing. And here's the but but Ben is also got this knack for sitting down with I'm pretty sure it's the paper app on an iPad busted Japan. And he'll draw the simplest looking diagrams that actually really pull his point together, you know, this, this is why Facebook has kneecapped the newspaper industry. And he'll do it in verbiage but then he'll also do it in a visual in the to work extremely well. together. And and so I i read his stuff, and I read his images as well. And I happily pay and do everything I can to drive more people his way. Because it's incredibly valuable. He delivers incredible value, like of course, I'm gonna keep my spirit tech every subscription. That's wonderful. So it is possible to get people to read your email. I mean, hey, maybe it's a smart writer, and I care about the topic, but it is entirely possible to get people to read your emails.
Nick Crawford
And that sort of taps into. So a couple of things. But the main thing being that the so the I'm selling the email Council for the data and Marketing Association, one of the industry bodies. Yeah. And so they do consumer research every year, and the biggest reason that somebody opens an email, so 48% from memory, is the relationship you have with that business or what you've seen in the past. Yeah. And then it's like 30% for the subject line. So it's because you know, the content is valuable, because you enjoy it entertains and informs Yes, you're almost using it as a print medium now to go actually, the email is just the vehicle for the copy. Right? Whereas actually, if you had something that you were less engaged with, and you opened up an email, and he went,
Matthew Dunn
yeah, yeah. No, yeah, no, I know. Yeah, you're absolutely right does not exist in a vacuum. And I had seen, I had seen and read his columns, and you know, not in email enough times to go Who is this guy? Cuz I keep thinking that's incredibly smart. what he just said, Oh, I can subscribe. Great. I wanted to ask you about because we're segwaying in that direction on. You've got lots of lots of news about substack. Recently in the email world, substack being paid emails newsletter, Twitter acquired a company six months ago or something like that. That's a paid email newsletter platforms, like all of a sudden email as a delivery vehicle for words, as you just said, it's kind of got some sex appeal. After having been relatively quiet for over a decade or so. reactions, comments.
Nick Crawford
Yes, but I think that's more than about email being a delivery mechanism rather than a content form. Okay. So I think there's probably a separation there between actually. Because it in the content form from a marketing point of view, am I likely to pay for it? No, if it's the way that I can receive that information, or be signposted to the rest of the information as a as a mechanism, then absolutely. So yeah, so I think it's it's email doing two slightly different jobs depending on kind of its point of origin.
Matthew Dunn
So here's your substack story. I want to know, I want to I am curious about your reaction to this. And I think that throwing some VC money around which makes some of this easier, but they've done they substack have done some what I would call cherry picking of journalism on they've taken top tier writers away from the New York Times from Vox and said, Look, you you individually, you have a you know, a voice and a following that substantial. Here's a pile of cash, leave that place, come write your own newsletter, you'll end up making a ton more and will do just fine and they've they've pulled some very high profile red writers away from the you know, the conclusion That is a New York Times Vox or something like that, and pull them over into Ben Thompson, sort of solo writer. It's it seems like an email is just doing his the delivery and control mechanism if you will there. But it also strikes me as like, wow, that's that's like last gasp for conventional all in one place conglomerate journalism is a huge, huge threat to those institutions if they're stars can jump ship and go have a solo career as the band gonna keep playing. Right?
Nick Crawford
Well it feels very similar to what Netflix did in terms of when they started creating content and their own film and their own you know that was taking it away from the network's Yeah. Yeah. It's it's like like anything else. We've we've got a great big debate in the UK at the moment over our soccer leagues and the new super so
I was gonna ask you about
Nick Crawford
supersize is the whole kind of like, yeah, we've got the best of the best, we're gonna put it somewhere else, we're gonna make it a ward ring fenced secret place. Yeah. And we'll make a lot of money from it. And you know, everyone is kind of going, but that's not what the whole grass roots up to professional. And that is not the basis of it. And yeah, but you've got others, you've got to see you've got that kind of view, and you've got the other views again. But if it means I can see my team playing in Spain or Italy, the best of it should be great football when and why not? So, like all these things? What value do I as an individual put on it? And does that mean that I'm willing to pay or subscribe or sign up? Or does it actually disengage me because it's seen as too cynical or too commercial?
Matthew Dunn
Well, well, all I have to unpack here. Um, so that that proposal you talked about, what's the label for that league? Not the Super League or something like that?
Nick Crawford
Yeah, I can't remember it. Yeah. Yeah. I was watching on the news yesterday.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah. Like I like I know, Bob, because about soccer. And Ben Thompson, St. jackery did a piece on that proposal for a Super League. He said this is this is another really it's an inner is another internet and free distribution things like because it's the most famous teams, not necessarily the best teams that are proposed for this Super League, which is kind of like the most famous writers could go write a newsletter article. Not necessarily the best in an in a in a competitive sense. I don't know. I have writer competitions, but it's attention is becoming such a scarce commodity, that their proposal there is we'll take the ones that are brands that are brands in your head already. Take the 20 you know the 20 most known soccer brands football brands, package them up and and you'll go there. And I would counter argue that that Netflix example, Netflix, Netflix doesn't just show hits. They've actually and they've invested in in are investing more and more in creating a pretty large repository. Because our tastes are diverse enough where if I'm going to stick with my Netflix subscription I may do I may do it because of programs that are you know, blah blah, blah and World War two British drama you guys seem to love those. And and you may do them because you like you know, he like thrillers or whatever, instead of just everyone will come because we we have the just the top movies, the soccer Super League seems like just just just the top box office smash movies. And Netflix would say now you got to have more depth than that, or people won't stick around,
Nick Crawford
I guess. And in a way, I guess we've got so used to Netflix, it just seems normal now, but I'm fairly sure that in the beginning, they had content that was only available on Netflix to bring everyone in and therefore there's a kind of sense of you've got to come here if you want it or certainly if you want to watch all of it. You kind of got to come here. Yeah. And so but over time, they've kind of almost become magnanimous again and kind of giving back and they're supporting smaller projects. So so you know, there's you know, there's there's good and evil in everything.
Matthew Dunn
There's good evil everything yeah, I just got a pop up that says that says one you chewed up a whole bunch more next time than you asked for. So thank you for continuous conversation, but I've got to lead zoom turn this into a video for for our mutual purposes and hopefully our audiences purposes, but so gotta wrap up. But, um, parting like advice for companies that are sort of not really doing the job with their, with it with the email piece of their marketing? Well, what you know, how do you how do you convince them that it's worth the time and attention and it's not old and tired and dead? Yeah.
Nick Crawford
So So I think it depends on who you're talking to. So if you're talking to from a commercial point of view, I would say, send an email. And what's your web traffic? What's your phone ring? And what's your your sales? Your support your engagement? Yeah, happen within 24 hours of that send going out? It absolutely has an immediate impact. Yes. I think from a marketing point of view, I would say, what are the channels? Do you own that data? What other channels? Can you nurture that relationship? Make email work for you? And then and then for the strategies and the vendors and the platforms, I'd say, how can we help? The those that aren't tech savvy that aren't coders that that just have the good ideas? Yeah. How can we enable them to make the content they're putting out as relevant, engaging, entertaining as possible?
Matthew Dunn
Nice, nice. You just did the you just did the commercial for this podcast episode. As usual, far better spoken than your cousin's across the pond here. Hey, Nick, hang I'm gonna hit the and record button. So you're not gonna have a quick tag and conversation. But once again, my my guest has been Nick Crawford, owner and principal consultant at twist consultancy. What's the URL for twist in case someone's listening and they're curious. Yeah, it
Nick Crawford
says twist. consultancy.co.uk.co.uk. Nick,
Matthew Dunn
thanks. Thanks so much for the time. It was a real pleasure speaking with you today.
Nick Crawford
Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thank you.