A Conversation with Dennis Dayman
Dennis Dayman shared his amazing journey through the digital revolution, ranging from startups to big companies to government service and beyond. A veteran of numerous email companies, Dennis started as "a telecomm kid", bonding lines with modems before most people had heard of online. Dennis is a widely-respected thought leader in the area of digital privacy, and an active participant in the OnlyInfluencers email community. His comments about building a successful company are priceless. Great conversation!
TRANSCRIPT AS AI HEARD IT
Matthew Dunn
Good morning. This is Dr. Matthew Dunn, host of the future of email marketing and my guest today. I'm delighted to have him for a one on one conversation Finally, is Dennis Dayman. I will say currently, Chief Privacy Officer at Maropost, among many other things, but but gentlemen, with a ton of experience in many domains, including email, Dennis, welcome.
Dennis Dayman
Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. It's It's fun to get back out there a little bit more, you know, since the pandemic lockdown and and doing it it sort of different way. But we're not physically having to fly anymore for these things.
Matthew Dunn
Do you miss it flying?
Dennis Dayman
I do actually, like I'm flying on Thursday. So I'm actually pretty happy about it. My, Jennifer, my wife and I, you know, we did a couple of trips here and there. You know, my sons are in university and they play collegiate tennis. So we got a chance to fly out to Florida to go watch them play in the beginning of the summer. And then Jennifer night, took off went to Nashville just to kind of get away and go hear some music. And yeah, that our typical, you know, trip to Turks and Caicos about two weeks ago, and then jump on a plane and go international here in about two days. So
Matthew Dunn
Wow, there you go. Well, it is it is something to start to get
Dennis Dayman
back out. Like it's a little Yeah, it's a little weird, though, with with what's happening with the new outbreaks and whatnot. And as somebody you know, as you know, I do a lot of work here in the city, you know, on the emergency management side of things as a volunteer and yeah, you know, you kind of wonder, like, what what I'm about to get into here jumping on a plane going somewhere a little bit further than I have been, you know, in a while and,
Matthew Dunn
and you're in Texas, if I recall, right? Yep. Just outside of Dallas. Yeah. So you know, Texas now without its particular challenges at this point.
Dennis Dayman
Yeah. It's gonna be interesting month or two. What's happening down in Austin? Yeah, yeah.
Matthew Dunn
You know, if nothing else, we've got 50 years with this civics lessons for school kids that are not ancient historical figures like no last week. Yeah. This is what a quorum is kids last week, right? A bunch of people got an airplane. And if there's not enough numbers, the rule said doesn't count. Really,
Dennis Dayman
really, really. I'm watching I'm watching this through my son's eyes because it just I mean, the timing is it's kind of Perfect with them being juniors in college and now getting their first introduction to adulthood and then sort of that that idea of like, what's what, what else is going on beyond what mom and dad will let me see. It's interesting to have this conversation with them, you know, to kind of, you know, especially when they've got other adults that they're talking to them their age, or professors, and they're coaches and whatnot, who have completely different mindsets and political thoughts. And the boys come home and go, Oh, you're never gonna believe what this person said. And I'm like, Whoa, alright, let's, let's
Matthew Dunn
have this conversation. Your juniors in college, you said, Yeah, so so they, they continue school during the pandemic year now, that has been just a year,
Dennis Dayman
actually, in March of last year, they were in Florida at a tournament, and they got sent home about halfway through, and we're told, hey, you know, the kids are going back to back into college for safety purposes. And they're gonna be on campus. And of course, they arrive on campus and they went, nevermind, we're gonna send them home for a week. And we'll let you know, six, eight weeks later, they're still here. Yeah. And finally, we're like, Hey, listen, um, you know, we're paying on room and board. And you know, we'd like to figure out what you're doing. They fall into said, you know, come to your stuff. We're going to continue to finish off the year remotely. And so they came home and finished off the rest of the spring semester. They did some summer stuff here. And then fall went into a hybrid, which basically ended up being teacher's prerogative. And basically teachers went, Oh, well, so I don't really have to go to the university. So let's just do a remote and so you'd find them sitting in their beds, laying down with their laptop at eight o'clock in the morning sleeping with the screen.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, my, my younger son. Last year would have been his senior year. He said a small liberal arts college in Washington and the spring experience right, the march to the end was was so jarringly different. Yeah, we talked it through and he's like, I don't want to spend a year on zoom. He said, you know, we agree. So he actually did a gap here two weeks I'll be back at school. He did a gap year and I think it turned out being a fantastic experience me landed a great gig. He learned to work. He bought a you know, bought a beater pickup and blah, blah, blah. It's like,
Dennis Dayman
okay, right. Yeah, okey dokey. Well, it's a nice break for them. I mean, you know, I wish I thought about doing that. When I was in college. I ran through it as fast as I could. And, you know, and it was just, it was just too much at times. I mean, in tours, especially that Junior, you know, junior year, at least for me was kind like one of those ones like you were taking more. For, for me, there were a lot more math involved, like statistics, like who loves statistics, I didn't, you know, I could have used that little brain break. And we did talk about it with them, but they ended up going back, you know, and actually living on campus or living in a new condo, there was some other folks and Okay, cool. But it's kind of fun for them. I think now, especially with us empty nesters. My wife went back to work last year after 20 years because her full time you know, job what she wanted, right? She wanted to be a stay at home mom. And so she has gone back to now of all things working as a librarian at a local elementary school. So it's, you know, keeping her busy, we see them less and less because again, they have their own lives. We don't force them, you know, home or anything like that. But it gives them that opportunity to spread their wings until they go oh, hey, I'm going to come home for the weekend and hear some dirty laundry needs some money. Can you take us food shopping?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Matthew Dunn
It's a, it's gonna be a marker for kids no matter what, you know, what the path was for them? I feel especially for the ones who either senior year of high school or freshman year of college was was the pandemic like buckets? Like, no, you need to deal with your tribe
Dennis Dayman
at that stage. Yeah, either Mr. prom, again, get the big kickoff for you know, for the end of your senior year and or vice versa. I watched a lot of their friends go, oh, they're Junior then senior friends go through that, which is kind of like, I hate that you're missing those sort of moments. You know, like, like the end of senior parties with a big tennis the tennis team from high school did a big party. They couldn't do it.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah. And even dumb though. It sounds you know, like graduation ceremonies and those kinds of hours which we all poopoo it at the time but we actually probably still remember it's like yeah, now you law enforcement originally into email.
Dennis Dayman
Yeah, I I love to blame my father for this one. Um, you know, I grew up in a in a in a bell family. I was a bill bread, as they say so all of our relatives work for at&t or SBC back then. And I yeah, I went to school for law enforcement. I had planned and did my bachelor's and graduated I plan on going back and doing my masters and a PhD in criminology and, you know, joining, you know, long term into the federal agency of some choice of mine, and that'd be it. But again, growing up in a telecommunications family, you also get pulled into the technology side of things. So I was the I was the one kid on the street that had if you remember The old packard bell computers with the case that would slide off to be able to, you know, get into it wasn't the desktop stand? Yes, yes. You know, and, and so you know, I was the one kid that would stand at the CompUSA line at two o'clock in the morning course my father would do it with me, so I get the latest modems. But I also had the ability to have like four and five phone lines in my room because again, working with an a telecommunications fan when you get all these benefits, so I ran actually a couple of bolts on board systems for a number of years. And that was sort of my entree into newsgroups use net. Yep. A lot of the folks that even we still see today in the industry came from that area. And so we were dealing with, you know, spam within news groups back then. And a lot of us were, you know, those those anti spam people that, you know, we're trying to prevent it. So I was self taught geek, basically. And as I came home from bachelor's degree, father said, Hey, you know, come home, and I'll get you a summer job. And he did in all age, both of us probably here, but my job at at&t was to migrate them from token ring to Ethernet. And O's, two O's to work the windows. Yeah, exactly. real hot stuff. But that, that calls me I'm getting ready to go back, you know, going back to school dad calls and goes, Hey, you know, there's this thing called the internet, I think you're messing with this thing at home all the time, because I hear beeping and beep and whatnot. And it's like, but they're looking for somebody to come, you know, over to the division to, to understand and to help, you know, police, if you will, and they need somebody who understands law, but they understand technology. Nice. Well, I was like, Alright, I'll take a look at this. You know, and, and, you know, instead of going back to you know, working as a, you know, as a deputy or something making $37,000 a year I get this job at at&t 60 person division, basically, making I think, 50 some $1,000 a year and I was like, Oh, this is great. Like, I get to work inside. I'm getting a lot of good money, and I get to play with technology. Yeah. And I never went back to the law enforcement full time but well, and and yet now,
Matthew Dunn
I betrayed myself for having made sure I boned up even more in your LinkedIn bio. Now you are involved the board a federal level with with Department of Homeland Security, correct policy? Yeah.
Dennis Dayman
Yeah, yeah. I it was a, it was an appointed position for Obama's administration, actually. So I advise DHS secretary, Chief privacy officer, and those folks that are, you know, higher up there on privacy and security what what a lot of agencies do, and you've seen us several times, and mostly people see it from the White House perspective, the adviser to the President, right? You know, all these groups and organizations have these groups of people, ours is called the dip yet the data privacy integrity Advisory Committee, and our job is to look at technologies and, you know, look at their policies and procedures. And as experts give them that feedback, or those sorts of things. One of the things that you're probably more familiar with, if you travel for those, you know, they're listening, if you travel International, sometimes now you walk up to your gate now, and instead of you giving them either your passport or your ticket, now, you walk up and there's a there's a tablet, and you look at it, and it turns green, and it approves you and they just like go on to the plane. Right? Those are, those are the sorts of technologies that we would take a look at and go, okay, and this is kind of the top level example. It's like, your passport comes from the Department of State, but yet the stuff that the DHS or what DHS does is a completely separate thing. And the data uses are different. And you know, how do you transpose those? And how long do you hold on to the pictures? And where do you get it from? You know, so we, so we advise them and we even test those technologies for them and what they need. So yeah, a lot of fun.
Matthew Dunn
Okay. And then in terms of emails, since at some point, we'll talk about email list a little bit. Email in the dead. Not at all. Return paths. aliqua Maropost now, like multiple multiple email companies over your career? Yes.
Dennis Dayman
So I started at at&t did about five, six years. They're running policy and procedure. So you know that that compliance person spent two, two and a half years with the folks at maps or mail abuse prevention systems working on the first email blacklist, and Paul vixie, and a lot of the folks that are still in the industry today, we all work together there for a number of years. That was a one when the market had that downturn. So Paul shut down portions of the business we left. I stupidly went to work back for a fortune 100 company, even though I just enjoyed my time at a startup and ended up at Verizon for two years doing the same work that I was at at&t. That's when Frank Dante and Tim McQuillan have strong mill. We're putting together the company. Tim had left Austin and gone to San Francisco and and they ended up saying you're fighting me if you were within this ecosystem, because at the ISP level, what we were also doing as we were working with with folks at the event, brand new ESP level, right? Yes, please. We're just really coming big and we were saying don't send spam quality over quantity. You know, all those things and, and from those little groups that we were all a part of whether it was the email center provider coalition that espc back, then they would have us come speak at their events as the, you know, postmasters and things like that. Well, Tim said, Hey, you know, once you come on over here and bring all that knowledge and help us build, you know, this platform called strong mill, and you know, we'd love for our customers to hear about it, have you built the technologies for us, and sure, why not. So I left 18. So I went to left horizon and went to do that spent six years loving every moment of that time there wasn't planning on leaving, and then the Joe pain from Eloqua, was asked to come in, and basically form a new team to do something with where elico was at the time. So they started reaching out to tons of people created a brand new executive, you know, committee brought me in to run privacy and security for that. And I was a part of that fun drive in defining what marketing automation was something completely brand new to us. And it was probably the best job I've ever had actually, up until that time, and again, really enjoyed that sort of time taking the company to its IPO. And then as you know, the acquisition to Oracle, you know, and then, you know, you go invest in peace, you know, with Oracle, or whoever it is for a while, and then kind of go Yeah, I want to go back to the startup life. And why should we do that? Yeah. You know, I, you know, I was like, it's just easier. But the interesting thing about return path was I had I had known George Bilbrey, and Tom Martel and Matt Blumberg from, you know, what, well, now 20 years plus now, but it had been an advisor to their company, because I was doing some advisement and startup investments, you know, over the last couple of years, and common left to go start a company. And so Matt said, Why don't you come and take his position, run compliance? And I said, Yeah, let's do that. And so yeah, five years later, we sold the company in 2019. Like, everyone else took some time off. And then you know, COVID hit, and, you know, I'm just consultant hanging around. And I had been helping Ross for a while on and off with his business, just advise him when he needed it. And, you know, as you know, he acquired Neato, which is the e commerce platform now for more posts, and had asked me to take a look at some stuff. And at the end of last year says, Are you ever going to make it official and come work here? He asked me, he had asked me in the past, but I was happy with what I was doing at Eloqua. I was happy with doing what I was doing at return path. Yeah. And it just the timing was perfect for it. So I came on board.
Matthew Dunn
And this is Ross at Maropost for those who are doing inside baseball. And and my word Are you in? Are you right in the eye of the storm, with your expertise on on privacy and security? Like,
Dennis Dayman
it goes everywhere? I'm touching a little bit of everything. Yeah, I'm helping, you know, john, and the team, sometimes on deliverability, and sort of email standard issues. The Apple thing like today's you know, webinars is one of those good examples. It's like, I'm the go between on some of that, because I'm sitting in the middle of those discussions or listening to the interview guys on that. And then the same thing happens on some of the product lines, or some of the adjustments that might need to be made in terms of how we're going to be doing, you know, your standards, that sort of stuff. So yeah, it's kind of fun to bring some of that, you know, 25 years of knowledge into this to make things even better, and to figure out how we can build a bit bigger and better product over time. But yeah, so yeah, and then I'm done with the privacy and security stuff. All that falls on me everything. Yes, I'm not, you're not perspective, and then whatever else, you know, they go, Hey, you know, we're looking at acquiring this company, or, you know, doing this, you know, come help look at the m&a process. And so I've done that before, so Oh, well,
Matthew Dunn
I have to say your dad made a pretty pression call. Yeah. Technology Policy line. Yeah. You said 25 years later, yeah, you're still you you're you're still right in the middle of those things. I, I have more than a bit of a student of history. And it intrigues the heck out of me, that the ragged rough edge of the digital frontier, is, is so personal. And that's a bit unexpected. I mean, yes, we've had all sorts of massive transformations. We could talk all day about that. But but but the the place where we're now going, hang on a second need some rules, barbed wires, boundary. Yeah, stuff like that is a is a very personal, not a very macro thing. It's like, wait a minute, I don't necessarily want you know, them knowing about this, or I want to be able to define it. And yeah, and control it. Are you surprised by the level of debate national level debate?
Dennis Dayman
Not so much anymore. I mean, you know, I kind of giggle about sort of like how I, you know, grew up in the digital age in terms of like, how I would protect myself, again, I knew what was happening. And so like many others, we all bought her own email domains and said, All right, I'm going to create all these different email addresses. You saw that tons of tagged email addresses if I complained about it today, where I have one that was from six, seven years ago, it was on Twitter if anybody cares, but you don't know It's getting spam now. But you know, but most individuals, our neighbors are non technical folks really hadn't really cared about this because the technology was the technology, they just look at it, it does what it's supposed to do. And, and one of the keynotes that I've been doing with the last year and a half, I kind of talk about the changing landscape of privacy and part of the example but, you know, even discussed in that your, your two years ago was, you know, the economy has been so heavily reliant on the, you know, the data driven aspect of it, right, you know, we, you know, the amount of jobs, the amount of, you know, revenue that the companies make, and what happens is, it's all digital now. And again, people hadn't really kind of cared about it wasn't until the Cambridge analytical issues happen, the like, I can't wake up anymore without actually turning on the TV or opening up a newspaper for those that might still read those things. And it just screams data breach every single day. So now what we're seeing is people that are now hyper aware of their data being misused. Now, this new thing with Apple and child porn has got everybody all these people that would have never talked about this at all are not going well, I don't want them looking at my images in the cloud anymore. Like what's that mean? So, you know, I think that, you know, it's a natural progression that's happened didn't happen overnight. Right? I mean, we've all been carrying these digital devices and phones and watches for a very long time but you know, the the Attorney General's are very tired of the data breaches or data misuses, the regulators are tired of it. And I think consumers are now asking, rightfully so. What are you doing with my data? I I'm tired of things happening. I'm tired. I mean, you get a new debit card on. I just, I'm tired. And I don't want to lose anymore. So
Matthew Dunn
yeah. And and in the US, I would have say our approaches, patchwork, maybe we're gonna start to get to a, you know, an actual national level discussion and eventually maybe set of binding decisions. Because it's, it's a it's a bit scattershot. Right. Yeah. I live in California. This if you live in Colorado, that the dead. Yeah, just keeping track of that. It's a daunting lift for the companies that really want to act legitimately. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. You're listening email folks talking like, you mentioned the discussion, a webinar that I did with Brian, sisal ack this morning, and he was talking about, that's okay. In the US, not in Europe. Like, we're not like we're not gaming it. Yeah. But we're willing to willing to maximum business benefit, I think.
Dennis Dayman
No, it's it's absolutely crazy. I am watching marketers, I've been watching for years panic. I mean, even when GDPR started to come out in Oh, 809. You know, it, it kind of reminded me and we were talking about this last week, right? It was like, when can spam happened? Right. You know, we had Trevor Hughes, who created the, the the espc to go off and, and to, you know, a lot in the lobby as a high term, but to go off and, and try to make this law work for all because marketers, we're going to lose all their data and everything. We're just gonna go down the toilet. And then yet what we found out was, what, almost two years later was Oh, yeah, kinsman was actually kind of good, because we went to quality over quantity and did better data. privacy regulations. Were supposed to be that I thought, yeah, you know, I thought that they would help and GDPR did. But then as you were saying, right, we've just been kind of, you know, lacking here in the US, we, I joke that my wife will give away any part of her pie to get a buy one, get one free at Payless. Right. It's just, it's just how it is with her. Right. And that is just the world that we live in here in the us is that we're just open to giving things out. Because privacy has never been a fundamental human right. And you said it very well. It's a patchwork, it's HIPAA, and the cable Act and the Telecommunications Act and, and whereas in the EU, right? Even when GDPR now, the UK is the example they had laws in the books in 7374, and 75. So you grew up with an idea about offline buy before online happened, that your data was yours, and you had to get permission. So so it's definitely way different? And will we see something happen? We have to I mean, I try I just I can't track 50 states worth of regulations and like he's said as well, companies here, customers here. What, you know, what's supposed to happen? I mean, how many more platforms do I need to buy from my website? Or the site what cookies to drop and what not to drop?
Matthew Dunn
Right? Right. I was I was I was doing the coffee wake up newsfeed thing this morning, and it was struck by how many accept cookie pop ups were now part of the experience like noticeably more than x months ago, even like, yeah, this was like, Okay, yeah. Why? Because that buttons bigger and it's more blue than the other one. I just don't read the dang article for
Dennis Dayman
you know, 10 seconds. It's gotten it's gotten as bad like I remember as GDPR happened. I remember Like someone, you know, earlier trips to Europe, and you walk into the hotel and you unpack your bag, take the laptop out, open up, connect to the Wi Fi. And it was like, literally there was like 15 choices just to get on the Wi Fi just because of all the cookies because they weren't even sure how to figure out what to ask you or what not to ask. You know, it's interesting because even then, the UK Ico or Information Commissioner's Office went through a thing where they were like, oh, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna turn off cookies, right? We're, you know, unless people opt in, they're the default is off. And they lost visibility of 95%. Like, but like, literally, they talked about this openly. They couldn't. And they were like, oh, okay, well, okay. Well, further regulation, we don't have to swing the pendulum that much. Let's go back the other way. You know, and they turn some cookies back on again.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah. When? When the announcement of Apple's email privacy thing hit out for their developer conference, June. I had to do it. I went straight to apple.com. To see what kind of analytics and tracking and cookies were involved, and guess what, it's not zero. It's not exactly zero. Like, okay, so why is it not okay, here? And perfectly fine here? Yeah, all that third party stuff, too. It's all third party stuff, too. Yeah. Like, okay, explain to me cuz you see talking out of both sides, your mouth a little bit, guys.
Dennis Dayman
Yeah, I just don't understand it. Well, and like we talked about, and like we talked about last week, a little bit. Right. You know, it's great that they're going on this route to some extent, but, you know, even their own web browser, Safari really doesn't go as far as it probably could from that cookie perspective. Right. And that's why like, for me, I mean, like I use, I use brave now, you know, I used to use the Chrome and then you know, all of a sudden, what's going on with Catalina brave? Now give that a whirl for a bit. But I mean, what are you gonna do about Safari moving next apple? Are you going to, you're going to turn on do not track as a full time and you're going to start blocking more than just, you know, your other people's cookies or just, yeah, well, okay, so
Matthew Dunn
so so here's a, here's, here's a pointed question, for good reason. How often do you run something in private tabs deliberately?
Dennis Dayman
pretty regularly, actually, especially if I'm doing searches? Like I just had a friend of mine asked me to look up something about this person was in Canada, and they were like, Can you look at this medication? For me? I'm like, sure. Let me turn on private tabs just for a second, because I know we advertise like that. Yeah, I just I know, I know better. And then only that my history, even though brave is, you know, I'm still I go back and forth between using the Google search engine and then using DuckDuckGo. But yeah, but you know, like, I don't need that out there. Yeah,
Matthew Dunn
yeah. All right. All right. Oh, I don't need the distraction of all of a sudden, every other thing in my newsfeed is related to, you know, to X to whatever it is. And yeah, and in here it is the boundary, my my wife send the opposite. And from what you said about your she'll trade PII for convenience, which is very American, in my mind is like, it will trade nothing. And we'll, we'll deliberately log out of everything. It's almost hard for me to be the textbook I'm like, which please leave that tab open? Because it's gonna take another five minutes to log back in, or like, go keto, right?
Dennis Dayman
No, no, my wife does the same thing, too. I converted her like two or three years ago with the last patch because I was tired of all the data breaches that were happening or the passwords because she was, you know, it was a dog's name with the cat's name and this and that, and it's like, I need to put you on this. And then she goes and closes it. And when she opens it, she's like, Oh, it's asking me to log back into LastPass to factor in before I can even get to my password and like, leave it open. Leave it in the background. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Dunn
And then, and then the last pass of the world, we've got the, okay, so it was like, who watches the watch? Or who do you trust? Right? Yeah. Okay, last pass all my passwords in the cloud. That's great. And wait, was that great? I'm not sure it's a great or not. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. And and, and, and the overall overarching thing there, which I really was curious to ask you about, you know, if if you do this or some of this for a living, or you've been at it for a while, you know, we cope, we keep up we are aware of things like brave, the person the household that doesn't have a pet geek. Got to be a bugger to navigate the world. Yeah, no, no, it is. It's, it's, it's mind numbingly detailed and complex. And like, everyone's a corporation of one whether they realize it or not, like not just the list of passwords alone.
Dennis Dayman
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Now the, I tell Jennifer not to tell anybody any more that I'm in computers, and then I'm just basically a digital janitor. And I no longer have stacks of you know, Windows 3.11 discs anymore, so I can't rebuild their computers anymore. So just for Wilder, did you used to get that cocktail parties were tech support jobs? Oh, yeah. No, I still do. I mean, you know, the, you know, the families who I absolutely love. Families families that, you know, went to, or their kid went to school with our kids, I still get calls from them like, Hey, you know, can you come and reconstitute this hard drive that I haven't turned on? And like, you know, 10 years, it's got some pictures from like, 20, you know, 20 years ago, I'm going. Yeah, I don't even know if I even have a Santa or, you know, that type of plug anymore. I?
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, yeah. Uh, one of our one of our neighbors, hired one of my sons to help them with some tech stuff. And I thought, that's kind of interesting. They kind of knew not to ask me. But they figured that was probably somewhere in the DNA, or the fire. And, you know, not even the technical stuff is not their interest. But yeah, they're like, Oh, yeah, this plugs into this, and you do that, like, try to just absorb it. Although I don't find millennials as tech savvy as they think they are.
Dennis Dayman
Like, my boys are not, they still call me quite a bit, even though they've got all the latest and greatest sort of gadgets, but they still have to call me when something's happened, or the university has installed like some new software they gotta use, like, okay, you know, yeah,
Matthew Dunn
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those of you who hate to do the gray hair thing that those of us old enough to, you know, sort of worked with the crude early stuff. It's kind of like, they're like, there being any conversation about cars and engines, right? It's like, yeah, if you had to get under the hood a little bit, when you could, you got at least some idea what to try, or what parts affect what other parts out that I'm a mechanic by any stretch.
Dennis Dayman
No, it's interesting. So you know, the boys, the summer changed. So last year, when they were here, they were working at the local golf course, and making great money there, like tips. And when they figured the system out, speaking of kids, like, like, they figured out how to work with people, they found, like the local insurance agent that made a lot of money, when he when he would pull up every single day, they were quick to get them a golf cart, and have it waiting, because he was dropping 20 $30 tips every day. Right? So they figured out how to work with people. Number one, but then this summer, what they've learned is interesting. So Andrew is working at the library, and he's learning a lot of good people skills and, and, and those sorts of things and watching him change his mind or how his mind expands is great. But Matthew ended up getting a position at the maintenance division. And you know, first, you know, it was like, Yeah, he's putting together picnic tables and doing this and that, you know, now there's, you know, several weeks, what, two months, maybe three months into the summer now, he has gotten so good with tools that like something was broken. He came by like a week ago, something was broken here. He's like, oh, I'll take care of that going. Wait, what? Nice, wait, that's great. So I don't have to do this anymore. Like you'll like like, all of a sudden, his mind has been turned on to the fact that I can do these sorts of things. And I'm like, both of these skills that you guys are seeing right now or what's going to come in handy. And I don't think a lot of kids your age, get that opportunity to be ready to enter the workforce and the next couple of years. So, you know, good on you, Matthew for learning how to fix things. Because when you get to be my age, and you wonder why I'm fixing things around here, because I know how to do it because I taught myself right. That's that's lost on listening to kids. Yeah,
Matthew Dunn
yeah. Well, and it's it's it's those of us in the digital space, it's so partially our fault, right? Because these are so like these are so frickin complicated and locked down and convoluted that even if you are an experts like I mean I can barely I can I can't get under the hood. Yeah at all and kids with less opportunity or created necessity to work with their hands to understand what a socket sets for and stuff like that. I don't think doing me any favors at all.
Dennis Dayman
Well, it's it's all a lost art. I mean, for you and I at least got you know, going through school week, we had to take home economics. You know, there were still shop class of sorts. You know, I was a band geek so you know, there was still some fine arts involved you play as percussionist trumpet Oh, I didn't realize that Yeah, no, I elementary school middle school high school Yeah,
Matthew Dunn
I was a bad for my nose my tribe almost all the way through.
Dennis Dayman
Okay, that's what kept me it's what kept me out of trouble. But yeah, but for kids I mean, you look at like I use this as an example today as well like I sometimes they'll go teach at the the forays stuff right all the teach the parents about technology and security and privacy and you know, Hey, kids, you know, make sure you don't put out your PII or talk to strangers, that kind of stuff. The stuff that they were teaching us the life teaching skills, right, the life event skills, they're not doing that anymore. And one of those is computers and technology, like, you know, most most high schools or depending on where you're at, you either still use a lab or if you're, you know, in a nice area, they might give you a tablet or a laptop to use but outside of that that's all you're using it for they don't teach them any of those skills about being online. And I'm interested actually now with us still now being remote because a COVID. How is that affecting those that graduate in the last year or two that went into the workforce that they were lucky enough to get a job? Like how does that change your your mindset a little bit like, do you I understand how technology works, you know, video conferencing all that stuff, because I don't know, you know, again, it's not being taught as much as, as it used to be like lifewise. And that's part of it, I think that we should be teaching these younger folks is Hey, you're about to go in the real world. This is this is how you're going to end up, you know, interacting with the majority of it for quite some time. Yeah,
Matthew Dunn
yeah. Yeah. And, and not leaving out. The other thing that you mentioned about about Andrew, like, the people skill stuff. You've taken a bit of a beating in the last year. Yeah, cuz because so much so much is, is you know, so much is remote and remoted. And, you know, kind of mediated and phoned in and, yeah, like it, I don't discount the, the skills that the digital natives have that I like, don't like they they note a protocol. Dad, you called me without texting me first. I'm like, Oh, that's the new rule. Like, I don't care.
Dennis Dayman
I mean, that's, that's what's funny, because that's how I primarily will communicate with them, because they're busy. And I don't want to bother them. Yeah. But we actually don't even really text that off. And they don't really respond back. It's actually believe it or not, it's, it's Snapchat for us, when, you know, print in a pre pandemic, but even now, you know, as that we know, a lot of us were on the roads. That's how they knew what I was doing. throughout my day, I would take photos of the events that we were at, or Snapchat, and they would see those are the videos. And the same thing happens with them. Now even more today, they it's almost like, it's almost like the promotions box at gmail, it's waiting for them. It's not beeping at them, it's sitting in the Snapchat app, and they've got all their friends who have done it, and they can, when they're ready to then go look at those timelines and those videos or those pictures, and then respond whenever they want, when they want. There's no pressure and I kind of like that myself. Now. It's been kind of enjoyable for me as well to talk with them. But yeah, we get a visual of that.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, yeah, we've got a long running family and everyone an iPhone in our, in our case of good long run, long running family message thread. I don't want to know how many pictures and videos stacked up on multiple devices.
Dennis Dayman
Now we do the same thing to my wife's phone is always running out of space, like pictures and stuff on that local database. Yeah.
Matthew Dunn
And, and all of this, like, was barely sci fi. Right? when when when we were starting working with this stuff. I mean, if you did BBs the notion of uploading a picture over 12 probably 1200 baud? I don't think so. You're gonna sit there. Watch it render line by line.
Dennis Dayman
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And if you had like a bad day, and the weather wasn't really good, and you know, I mean, I remember when we were able to start bonding phone lines together. And then there was ISDN, you would get a bonded pair. Yep. Yeah, I was like, wow, I'm doing 128 left. That's crazy. You know, crazy. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Dunn
And at the same time, back to security and privacy for a second, some of the human behaviors that are problems. Now were obvious in problems, then even in the infant days, you know, BBs is you had the flame war, where the guy wouldn't shut up, or the guy who was trying to sneak ads in there, like same same cotton pickin,
Dennis Dayman
same thing, same thing, just different technology, slower time. It is. It's still like, it's the old tragic tragedy of the commons, right? We, you know, we created this for the benefit of Well, we're dealing with governments and universities and whatnot to be able to trade information that was opened up to a little bit more a little bit more than obviously, that one person comes in and ruins it for everybody. And like, I remember years of like, being in one news group and going, Okay, let's go. Let's go start another one, just over here. And we're going to leave these guys over here, because this is getting kind of crazy. And then this one would start off really well. And then we'll get ruined.
Matthew Dunn
Like spend my life life lifespan arc. Yeah. Yeah, many, many, many dissertations yet to be written. So so let's talk more current timeframe and email, but you're involved in at Ned Maropost? What are the key privacy and security issues for customers of a company like Maropost? What are the things they're grappling with?
Dennis Dayman
Um, you know, I think for us is, to be honest, is making sure that our clients understand what their obligations are, and us not ignoring interesting or looking the other way, right, I find that we all should be a data steward, right, you know, whether it's our business or you know, or again, the artists that our data so like, as an example, like yesterday, our privacy counsel within Maropost met, and that, you know, includes like the VP of sales, the VP of Marketing and all these higher up people and whatnot. Because it's not shouldn't ever just be me running this thing. But everyone should have a piece of the pie, right? Yeah. Because they're also collecting data and they're seeing things that I just can't see day in and day out, especially, you know, with what they're doing. But that same thing I think exists within clients is that if we know a client has done something has brought on a list or has done something wrong, it's like, Alright, well, let's, let's, let's, let's look at this for a second, like, Where did you get this from? Oh, it's it's, it's, it's people in the EU, did you get permission did you do this, you can't do that, not only can you not do that, because it's against are up for sending out spam and you know, that kind of thing. But by the way, that's, that's illegal, right? And you need to make sure that you go off. And you do that, because what I'm noticing, and what I'm hearing a lot more of, and you you've seen this over the years is these data protection authorities are not just holding the, the the data controllers as we like to call them, right, you know, holding them, you know, in responsibility for whatever that they're doing. But they're now going after those that might be also in processing that data or knowing that something was going on. Otherwise, you can't claim stupidity anymore. You can't look away from it anymore. And I think it's also our job to sort of do that. So I think that's one of the biggest things that like john and the team have to do on the deliverability compliance side of things is to say, hey, it's awesome compliance, saw whatever these numbers are out of whack, what are you like, stop, like, what are you doing? Let us help you figure this out, you know? And so yeah, I think that I think that's one of the things that we spend more and more of our time on. And I think almost every, almost every company out there kind of does that, right? Because we all want to be the, the, you know, creme de la creme of platforms that are out there and don't want it up in the spam folder or on spam house or something to that effect.
Matthew Dunn
Well, it's I mean, it's, it's interesting from another angle, as well, that that, you know, a vendor, it ends up with this additional part of the job is education. And, and, and you're not, you're not law enforcement, per se, but law awareness, if nothing else, becomes part of the job. And it's, you know, it's bad for the vendor bad for the company, if their customers really misuse and abuse. So there's a there's a business interest in saying, No, no, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that. Yeah, but it gets it does get bigger and broader than then then that and you do end up with this additional responsibilities that says, like, you know, I need to help you do this, because you won't be successful. Because I don't want you in jail. Yeah. And it's like, it's like, if you you know, the funny joke to make but it if you buy a gift by a circular saw, now, you can bet there's a dummy sticker that says, Don't stick your fingers in this. Because someone must have watts. Yeah, exactly. So now the company's got to produce the sticker. Don't put your fingers in the blade. Really? Yeah, it's a Darwin award. And they're all there. They're everywhere. Yeah, here's your sign. You know, waiting for the warning sticker on bricks today. Don't hit yourself with. Yeah, exactly. Don't throw this. Okay, okay. But but with email, emails are particularly like, funny, weird matrix, because they're sort of I send email or go. I'm an email expert. Almost everyone's got that, like that mental framework problem. Oh, God, are they? Yeah, are they make up their own stats? It was like our discussion today. Right? It was like open rates, open rates,
Dennis Dayman
I am seeing 40% open rates. And like one, I don't think you're really seeing 40% open rates, but really wide open. Like, let's let's go back for a second. Let's talk about, you know, clicks to conversions to whatever, right, let's talk about those real metrics, all the stuff that Jennings was talking about today. It's like, that's what's important. You know, I get the fact that you think you're an email expert, because you can hit the, you know, the button like the monkey does. But no, that doesn't work that way. You know, this is what my wife doesn't drive a Ferrari. Okay, because there's no way that number one, she could drive a stick shift like that. And why No, no? Well,
Matthew Dunn
it's hard not to get a little irked with, let's say, marketers who run email programs, when they when they they seriously don't seem to understand even the basic plumbing involved in what they're doing. And then I tried the other side of it go Well, yeah, but it's not like they're not up to here busy doing the things that they that they do, do, I think they'd benefit me that comment the webinar today, like, you don't read up a little bit on HTTP, guess what, because it actually is part of your life and has been for 20 years. And if you didn't look at that, like, you're kind of missing a basic groundwork understanding and also think, are they going to bother? I don't know. I really don't. Yeah.
Dennis Dayman
Well, I mean, you know, I somebody was like, I can't believe we're still dealing with deliverability issues. How is it that this hasn't been talked about for so long? Well, I mean, you've got all these, you know, new people, new kids, whatever, they're coming into this, and, you know, and they have no idea. It's, you know, they just hire them right and go, okay, you know, your job is to help us put together whatever, right and they start learning those hard lessons very early on, like, oh, Moore's better, bigger red button, like we were talking about earlier. It's like, yeah, there's a way of doing it
Matthew Dunn
and it has you know, like this, the The digital ecosystem has evolved and continues to evolve so fast that really trying to get on top. No one's an expert in everything. It's just not. It's like it's not possible. And email in particular seems to suffer a churn problem professionally speaking. I mean, there's either people who've been at it for a long stretch and end up back in it, or they're gone, they're gone. They're gone. Like the perpetual someone said freshmen class or something like that. Like, it's not going to stick around.
Dennis Dayman
Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, I think for a lot of folks, either they find it really fun, or they just don't find it fun or not, not sexy at all. Right. I mean, they, I mean, for me, it's, you know, like, I tell people that, you know, marketing is not easy. I mean, it just isn't, I mean, if it, if it was, then we'd all be retired It is, it is a very tough mathematical job. I mean, I, I kind of make it a science sort of thing. It's like, you got a lot of things you have to look at, and you have to be a psychologist, and you've got to be an artist, and you've got to, you got to hold multiple degrees, multiple hats almost to be able to do those jobs and be very successful at it. And if you're just coming in and going, Oh, I can create an email. Sure, you know, I can move some things around. And, you know, I can use this wiziwig, basically, right. But I'm hoping that if I hit that then good, maybe if one person buys something, I've done my job.
Yeah, no,
Matthew Dunn
no, no. Well, you made the joke early on about you know about your stats class in college. And now, yeah, like, every day, all day, some some grasp of statistics is absolutely vital. Why? Because the numbers were numbers of grappling with you're not going to wrestle down any other way.
Dennis Dayman
Yeah, I, I joke around people and tell him that I mean, this is true. possum, for sure. And I still remember very vividly, but I you know, oddly enough, every time I drive by a McDonald's now, I look at McDonald's and I the lessons and the way he would teach it was like, Okay, how do they know how to be ready for the lunch crowd? Like how many big macs to make how many, you know, quarter pounders to make etc, etc, without wasting food without, you know, then being behind? And it all comes down to statistics and looking at numbers and samples? And you know, Mike, oh, you know, okay, that and you look at that enough marketing perspective, you have to look at that and kind of go, alright, what kind of inferences Can I make? Other than just an open? Right? I mean, yeah, you know, there's got to be more more to that than just that. And that was the beauty of like, marketing automation. I, that was an eye opener, especially from somebody who had been a staunch anti spam person for so many years interest was to finally see this thing called the funnel, and go, okay, and qL, you know, SQL. And then, you know, for us, one of the examples I always love giving was like, you know, hey, you know, he comes Matthew and, and, and he's given us his email address, and he's got a title of CEO. And, and by the way, he did click on this, and there was all these, you know, you know, numbers, yeah, these ticks, but these, you know, values, we would say, Okay, well, CEO titles very important, because that's the person we're looking for. So that's got a 50 as the number. And yet maybe his click was worth 1010 points. And, and that whole point system was so mind blowing to me, I was like, wow. And it was interesting that from eliquis perspective, I started talking about it as deliverability plus, like, take your double up, you know, take your deliverability to a completely new level by looking at the mathematics. You know,
Matthew Dunn
yeah. Yeah. And, and, and marketing. As you said, it's hard science. I think the science side of it is gone. Like this. In the last decade or so, we've got a level of, we've got a level and a set of feedback mechanisms that did not exist in the broadcast era. Oh, yeah. Right. You know, you paid your money. Sam Wanamaker half my ad budget is wasted. I just don't know which half and now, half your ad budget is wasted. But you probably know at least part of what's wasted. So you can change it in wasted a different different way. The next time or wait. Yeah, exactly.
Dennis Dayman
I kind of I kind of missed the old days like Nielsen measurements, just real simple. There's one thing I had to keep out now you've got all these different things now.
Matthew Dunn
Right. And, and, and it's a lot to learn on the job. But that's the only way to learn it.
Dennis Dayman
It is Yeah, we I've watched everybody that's been on our industry, all of us, all of us old fogies or whatnot. But I've watched all of us at some point, and others say, hey, let's go to the University of whatever and let's go start a marketing program or let's go help them put together and you go full fledge into it. And the university is like, yeah, we'd love to do this. And then it just falls apart and never and never holds. For some reason. I've never been able to figure that out. They're more interested. Like all the stuff that I'm doing here in Dallas with like dBu and SMU and all these other colleges. It's all about startups. That's all it is. It's all it's all about cool. They're not putting that money into marketing. They actually SMEs got a great marketing professor. And he teaches some of the real high level basics of marketing, I think, but I don't know how far he gets into it was I don't know if he gets into this sort of detail, but it just never happens.
Matthew Dunn
What do you what do you make of the entrepreneur slash startup rock Star fixation that seems relatively new to me.
Dennis Dayman
It's a little dangerous. I think I can't tell you how many times I've been either invested into a company or mentor company where they wanted to live that startup founder lifestyle, right, they see all these famous people that have done really well for themselves, and they want that. And so their decisions and their companies are now being made based purely on how do I get there quicker, right? Instead of making smart decisions about your business, and financing and hiring, and, you know, and how you build. And, you know, it's it's, it's unfortunately, I think, all these TV shows and whatnot, very much sensationalized at all. I mean, I don't even watch, you know, marking those guys doing that stuff on TV, cuz I'm like, wow, you're gonna give away 50% of your business just because you're gonna get $20,000 and his Rolodex. I'm not sure that's the best deal in the world. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not. But
Matthew Dunn
yeah, it just occurred to me. Rough analogy, your next year, your former band geek you'll get it's like the the startup shows are to the actual grind of building a business. As you know, America's Got Talent is to the grind of learning an instrument.
Dennis Dayman
Yeah, learning an instrument and actually getting a talent behind it. Right. You know,
Matthew Dunn
everybody wants to be a rock star. Nobody wants to play scales.
Dennis Dayman
Yeah, no, yeah, that that's the thing. I can't I don't want to name names, but like, there's an individual that went to one of those singing programs. And, I mean, he basically had, you know, he had chords and but if I put some sheet music to sight read, he couldn't do that. Or even tell me what a major or minor minor melodic scale was. It just there's no way. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Dunn
It's too much. Too much is too great enemy were sounded like the, you know, the guys in the Muppets balcony.
Unknown Speaker
Danger is,
Matthew Dunn
like someone who does does the startup and entrepreneur thing more than once, when someone when I see someone ranting on about, you know, the path to glory, I'm like, Dude, this is a lot more work than a jail Bay. And if you're willing to sign up for that, you're diluted a little bit, you're gonna learn a lesson the hard way, I
Dennis Dayman
suspect. I've seen a couple of young founders. In the last couple of years that came straight out of college, I'm going to start a company going to make go like gangbusters, and two years later, they're like, wow, this is difficult. I may just want to sell this thing and be done with it. I I don't want to put the hard work into it. And it is it is it is very tough. I, I have been there. We've lost it. We have, you know, we have won. But you know, I think people always think that when you say startup that you're going to be leaving there with, you know, six, seven digits on your paycheck at some point. And most time, you're not just gonna be alive.
Matthew Dunn
90 plus percent likelihood not. Yeah. Yeah. Which is not saying don't give it a try. But
Dennis Dayman
yeah. But But, but take what you learn from that right and do something different. I, I tell people like for me, like I got involved only because of one person. And it was a guy named Mark Kwame, who was at Sequoia ventures. And he did. He had been involved with like the eBay's and the Googles and Yahoo's in the early days of investing. And when he did, and Sequoia Capital did their investment in strong mill. I remember, like literally asking him like, how was it you have 30 some odd million dollars that you just gave us like, like, like, if we just piss this thing away? Like what does that do for you? How do you make money. And I remember him very specifically telling me Listen, do not focus on the money, it's never about the money. Because the money is good. Because money can be good, it does things for you, he goes, but you have to focus on the product. And you got to focus more specifically on the people people and build the culture around your company around them. Because if they're not happy, the company is not going to be happy. It's not going to go anywhere. And that's why you see, I think a lot of successful startups that have put people first is why Google and those folks have invested heavily in you know, you know, dry cleaning services and food service, you know, all those things to make your life easier. So they don't work hard. And eventually it'll it will pay off. And he was he was so right. I mean, we at Eloqua did the same thing to our clientele, we call them eloquence actually did that back. We actually call ourselves eloquence internally as a, as a gesture. The the the customers heard the term and said, Well, how do we become a part of that fancy club? And we're like, oh, well, sure we can bestow upon you the term eloquent and be a part of this family. And when you we ended up doing that we brought everyone the customers and the employees all together. And that work. Same thing happened to return path, Matt made sure that it was family, you know, it was it was everything comes first before the job does. And that's why everybody was so happy and able to do those sorts of things. And I think that that's the last idea on some of these kids are coming out of college to go I'm gonna do a startup and I've got to be this way. No, you don't. Right.
Matthew Dunn
I do think that we're getting smarter about those human capital issues that you just touched on. When you look at company you mentioned Google for sure. Netflix always comes to mind. Beware where there as the intellect And and creativity output from from an employee because more and more clearly is the thing that's going to make this work or their relationships. Right? They go like how do we how do we enable them to do that and and and not put crap in the way that doesn't enable that. So that and and pick people that like this is their sweet spot their strong spot, you know great people skills, put them into people jobs, etc it's like it's nicer getting smart I was I was at Microsoft in the 90s, which was a it was like it was a fascinating ride, but it was very much the you got to be there seven days a week of pre you know, pre this better recognition of human capital and I never bought it like, yeah, yeah, you can't get it done in five, five and a half days a week, maybe you need to be a little smarter about picking your projects, see?
Dennis Dayman
Yeah, exactly. No, exactly. Well, and that's funny, because now like, even this week, I don't know if you didn't see on the news. But now they're, again, bringing up this whole idea that we need a four day week, right? I mean, great. I think a four day weeks, kind of a nice thing. I personally don't think we need it. But I'm also an adult that's been able to figure out after a 15 plus years working at home to go, alright, I can work 1218 hours a day, if I have to, or if I need to work six hours or like today, I got up this morning, early, got the wife out of the house, you know, I I went and took a job and a little bit of email. And I was like, Oh, I got to go to the parts store now because I got to get that part of my car back here by 10 o'clock to do a bunch of work. And who knows, I mean, I'm adult enough to figure out that I can balance my days out. But there are others that can't figure that out. They can't put the devices down. It's literally I think one of the reasons even that return path when we decided to forego vacation, we said, we don't have vacation policy you take the time that you need. And for this happening as people didn't take vacation. We're like, Okay, great. So new policy, every four years, you have a 60 day paid sabbatical, and we would kick people out and go go somewhere, we would spend their passwords on their email, so they couldn't touch it. Once they go away. And when I did my first sabbatical, I remember the first two or three weeks of like, twitchy. I need my, where's my corporate team, and I couldn't get into it. And by the, you know, what, six, seven, whatever week it was, I was like, I really don't want to go back to work now.
Matthew Dunn
I took a I took a compromised version of that when when our team was a little bit bigger. I said, Okay, our vacation policy is you have to take at least one contiguous week of vacation in the year, or I will yell at you. Yeah, cuz, because otherwise, and Netflix has had this problem with the unlimited vacation like people, people don't take it like and Mia culpa, startup guy, it's freaking hard. It is it is like detach and check them, you know, log files or whatever, solve that one problem like, Oh,
Dennis Dayman
well, the way that we were on vacation, the whole family was one vacation that week. HR goes, Hey, everybody, Marcos, Monday, everybody has off. I'm going, Oh, well, that's nice. I'm only on vacation. But they just gave everybody off on a Monday and said enjoy the day because we need you to recharge and be ready for this whole thing. Right?
Matthew Dunn
Nice. There was a lot of that we should wrap up soon. But there was a lot of it was interesting watching companies sort of go Oh, well, we have to take care of people a little bit during the pandemic, like the verbiage around that shifted really fast and to the credit of employers
Dennis Dayman
if say, Yeah, I want to talk to you know, to lend over at Twilio. And, and Makins also remote. Like those guys said that, you know, when the pandemic started outside of, yeah, go home, here's a budget for you to buy office furniture from work at home, they've been sort of adding more money to them and saying here, here's some lunch money or, you know, go off and do this, or, you know, go off and take those day to go do this with your family. And here's some money to spend on that. You know, I've seen some of the companies in the last year also say, Hey, we're actually going to give you 1200 bucks every year or two, whatever it was to go take a vacation, we're actually going to pay you for your vacation. And I'm going, that's really awesome. But yeah, it was a complete mindset change in last year on that.
Matthew Dunn
Do you think we'll go move away from that and sort of go back?
Dennis Dayman
It's interesting to see what's happening with all these companies who were saying, you can work remote for as long as you want. And all of a sudden was like, oh, now you need to show back up again. And everybody got really upset about that because they went, I've actually figured this out. I know how to work remotely and do it very well. Now we're back to going Oh, nevermind, pandemics back, start working remote again. We'll figure this out later. It's gonna be interesting to see.
Matthew Dunn
And like Apple has said, No, and I get why they said that, like I've actually read that research. Yeah. And they're right. But just from Apple's lens on it. They're gonna lose some rock stars. predictably. Yeah. Yeah.
Dennis Dayman
Well, I mean, San Francisco did everybody decided, oh, I don't have to live in the city anymore. Pay all this money for rent. Why not? So I'm gonna move away. I mean, moving states in most cases. They're not gonna. Yeah, I'm proud of it. I'm proud of here. It really is. Yes, yes.
Matthew Dunn
Well you place like Boise, Idaho. Right, just exploding and I'm up in the corner of Washington. You know, we're seeing it as well. Oh, yeah, I can't I can't claim it's the only place it's cool anymore cuz you had a heatwave? What's up with that? I know, right. I know, right. Wow, well shoot Dennis, I can't wait for us to be live together at an email conference and continue this conversation. No, no, we did a bar. You know, I, I was never a huge conference guy. But so many wonderful people in the email space that I've got managed, that I've had such a great time getting to know I literally can't wait for the next conference.
Dennis Dayman
I think those that are either new to this industry, if I leave you with sort of one thought process and this whole thing is, you know, get to know the folks that you're working with and get to know those of their you know, in the industry, you know, I A lot of us, you know, that have been here long enough. This is an extended family bars, we've we've, we've seen the weddings and the babies and the deaths and everything else and and when we all get together at these events, it literally is like it's it's a family reunion for all of us to get together and sit down and break bread and have a couple of drinks and then go teach and help others and just reach out to people. We're all very nice people right? So you and I Yeah, definitely. It's gonna be a lot of fun once we can finally
Matthew Dunn
get back together I've ever worked in well once again, for those of you listening my my guest today has been the wonderful Dennis Dayman at Maropost right now and man of many parts. Dennis, thanks so much for the time it was a real pleasure talking with you know,
Dennis Dayman
you're welcome. It was great. Thanks for having me.