A Conversation With Cloé Luv
If The Future Of Email were 'Friends', this episode should be titled "The One Where They Talk About Music A Lot". Guest Cloé Luv is a serial entrepreneur with considerable experience in (among many things) the business of music.
Cloé is also a CEO, influencer, brand expert, success coach and Forbes Coaches Council member. Cloé is her own best example of the importance of passion, focus, leveraging one's strengths but keeping the important stuff in mind along the way. (Cloé's first job dusting the video-store shelves is also a pretty good story!)
"I always urge people trying to make a name for yourself, make, make a brand. That's all branding, whether it's music or business. That's why I take it everywhere. It's the same foundation, create a brand for yourself." There are plenty of gems in this conversation about business, and branding, and even email, to be sure.
To be candid, if you're looking for "email marketing tips", this may not be the best Future Of Email episode. (See Ryan Phelan, Kath Pay, Chad S. White episodes for that.). But if you want to hear two people with passion and expertise for both business and music explore the current and future state of that field together...this is definitely the conversation for you!
Matthew Dunn: Good morning. This is Dr. Matthew Dunn, host of the future of email. My guest today, easily the best dressed guest we have ever had on the future of email is Chloe Love calling from New York, Brooklyn, New York, Brooklyn, New York. Chloe, welcome. I am. So delighted and excited to get a chance to talk with you and quiz you on how the heck you juggle all the things you juggle.
Cloe Luv: You know, that's a good question. My response is usually by prayer by the grace of God and passion. I really do feel like passion plays a big role in it because it sets off that those endorphins and gives you that adrenaline that you need. So I feel like passion, just the love for what you do and the, what you receive from people who get to, you know, experience what you're passionate [00:01:00] about.
Matthew Dunn: I think if we tried to do the short version of the things that you're involved in, we'd still run out of the hour, but CEO, influencer brand expert, heavy hand in music business. And a mom, not least of things, speaker, and I think you run a mastermind as well. Yes,
Cloe Luv: I do.
Matthew Dunn: So how do you, how do you describe, you know, your business activities, at least in, in the time of a reasonably long elevator ride?
Cloe Luv: You know, so in a nutshell when I first started business, there were so many things I wanted to do. And I kept getting like PR people or trying to work with people who were like, it's all over the place. I, I, you know, we just need you to focus on one thing. And I had to learn how to make the one thing, the umbrella, but the other things I do, the distribution of the umbrella.
So with that being said, I, I focus on [00:02:00] success coaching, how I do that. You know, I work in the music industry. I come from a long line of musicians being related to James Brown. My father was a musician. I'm still is. I'm married to a musician. My husband is one of the producers signed to my production company and songwriters.
He's also my partner. So I learned a lot in business. Financing and you know, leveraging collateral through the music industry because I wasn't a songwriter per se, I did write some songs here and there, but I was more in the business focus on it. And then when I understood that a lot of record deals were just high interest loans, I was able to take that to any business, like understanding, leveraging business credit, the foundations of what makes a good business building a brand.
And it just allowed me to really. expand my wings to other industries, but also become a consultant because one of the things I mentioned sometimes, but I don't have [00:03:00] ADHD. So my brain is moving like really fast, a lot of thoughts, a lot of ideas. And one of the things that a lot of people with ADHD do is we start a lot of businesses, we start a lot of things.
But what I had to learn was that there's a space for that as a consultant. Where all the ideas don't have to be mine, they can be ideas that I help other people flesh out and that way I'm able to use my superpower for other people as well in an efficient way. So that's, I think that's the best way to do it all is to understand what's for you and to understand what's for someone else and understand what your overall goal is.
And everything that you do under it or just distribution dreams of the overall goal. Like Warren Buffett said it best. You, you're going to go broke with one stream of income. So. You know, I listened, I listened, that goes down the drain, there goes the neighborhood, so I
Matthew Dunn: listened. Yeah, let's let's roll through some of those wonderful subject headings that [00:04:00] you just threw out.
Starting with one of my favorites, music, also musician. Oh! Musicians, yeah, yes What are you playing? Singer and a pianist.
Cloe Luv: Oh, my dad plays the piano as well. Does he? Yeah? And he's a singer as well.
Matthew Dunn: Nice. So, did you grow up with that sound?
Cloe Luv: Absolutely. I grew up in the studios right in Manhattan on 34th Street.
Oh,
Matthew Dunn: cool. I grew up in tiny town, but as I've teased my mom, my older sister and I were science experiments. She went to the effort of playing records pretty much every waking hour when we were kids, which in the days of LPs Was it not trivial undertaking and ended up with musicians. Yeah. That's it is an interesting, odd, not always pretty business, isn't it?
Music. Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love the way you said it, you know, record deal, high interest loan. High interest
Cloe Luv: loan, right? It's like once you see it, you can't unsee it. [00:05:00] You know, once you understand that you can't understand it. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Dunn: And yet people keep, you know, running and trying to scale that wall, particularly, particularly youth.
I think that's fair, right? It's like, Oh, I want to be a. Like, okay, by all means, go for it. I gotta tell you, that is a tough way to make a living young person.
Cloe Luv: Yeah, it is a tough way. Well, what it is is the lack of resources. It's why most people, even though they get this deal where it's like, they take 85 percent on when you, when you, when you look at the back end, you're going home with 15%.
But focusing on young people who, or even older people who don't have much, I mean, 15 percent of 10 million to someone is like better than where I'm at right now. So it still looks like a good deal for them when they break, break it down until they realize how much of their all they're giving. To give away 85%.
And that's where we start to see like the public bitterness. So we start to see the disconnect between the excitement in [00:06:00] the beginning. And now it's like you know, a slave contract, if you will, where a lot of artists have literally referred to it in that way. Yes. But I guess if we understand it from both sides from the business aspect, it's like, I put you in this position, so everything that you're getting is because of my network.
And because of my resources that you wouldn't have been able to do, maybe not with, you know, without me. So it's, it's like a gift tape, but there there's usually a good medium. If you get to an artist who already made some kind of buzz for themselves, right? Like they already got a name out there. So you can argue for masters.
You can argue for better percentages. You can argue I'm doing great independently. So why do I need to sign to you? Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I always urge people trying to make a name for yourself, make, make a brand. That's all branding, whether it's music or business. That's why I take it everywhere. It's the same foundation, create a brand for yourself.
Matthew Dunn: Yeah. I actually spent some time in the edge of the music business as a [00:07:00] technologist, and we'll come back to why that matters, but here's a, maybe a pointed question to throw at you. If we put you in charge of the universe for a day and you could restructure the music business, would you? Absolutely.
Cloe Luv: I would absolutely restructure the
Matthew Dunn: music business.
Well, how would you change it?
Cloe Luv: So there's so many things that I, Don't agree with I like a lot of 360 deals. I think that that is like that. That should be unenforceable Because the 360 deal sorry where everything that you make no matter what industry their labels will sign people And if I go to makeup if I go do this, I get a piece of everything.
Yeah, that's illegal That shit, that's like almost the usury law that we had back in the jail for that, right? So I feel like part of it I get the part of you saying I put you in position, but there needs to be like active sunset clauses where after a [00:08:00] while you can collect up to a certain degree. I don't believe that 360 deals are something that should be made the norm unless you're coming in as a full management company and you're getting me.
The, the, the makeup and you're getting me the partnerships and you, you know what I mean, I feel like it just shouldn't, it shouldn't be enforceable and not, not under like some type of usury law that you're doing all of this without the other parts, you know, and, and there's so many people who. They're signing these things and they're not educated.
They don't have money for expensive lawyers. And there's a lot of like being taken advantage of. Yeah. Another thing that I would change is how much we're getting paid for like streams and, and you know,
Matthew Dunn: I was, I was going to ask, so I'm glad you went there. It's
Cloe Luv: ridiculous. Like, it's ridiculous.
Licensing like music plays a big role in these things, but the initial payout to me sometimes is not worth what the musicians are putting in. And, and what it brings to whether it's an episode, whether it's a movie trip, you know, it's [00:09:00] just the worth of music and what, what that brings to people, the euphoric feeling the, the, the difference that it makes when you look at something with music behind it I don't think the value has been fully understood or respected by those who dictate what the, the fees are that were paid out.
Yep.
Matthew Dunn: Yep. This is okay. This has already like become my favorite. Cause this is going to be like, this is going to be the music music
Cloe Luv: music on my interviews. Everyone always talks just full business. So this is one of the first times I actually get to speak about those things. I'm excited. Yeah,
Matthew Dunn: me, me, me too.
So no, I seriously am. I I did a, I did a keynote talk, gosh, this is a few years ago now when I was just coming off some involvement because I had learned kind of the historical trajectory of the, of the legal and IP makeup of music, which is, it's a bit of a mess, but it is what it [00:10:00] is now. And I had a ringside seat in the early days of music turning digital and watched the, watch the streaming thing arc over.
And I keep waiting for someone to change the terms for the people that actually write the music and play the horn or play the piano, etc. And like, their piece of it just seems to be getting smaller and smaller, to your point, about streams. And it's like, ugh. And at the same time, and I'm curious your perspective on this, Chloe.
Music is becoming more a background activity, less a foreground activity, culturally. It's just,
Cloe Luv: yeah, I feel like when we look back and this is where, you know, when you're getting older, when you're like back in my day, I get
Matthew Dunn: to play that card. You
Cloe Luv: don't say that all the time. I'm like, we had these iconic people, right?
That they stood the test of time, right? We [00:11:00] had. the Whitney Houston's, we had the Celine Dion's, we had these iconic people from every genre you know, Aerosmith, like we had these iconic people that were so front forward to us with everything with like the fashion, the influence, and we didn't see a lot of the mess.
Because the internet wasn't, you know, it wasn't as prominent then. So we didn't get to see a lot and like, you know, we didn't have TMZ and all these people would stalk them to that degree, but we didn't see a lot of the mess. So it positioned them in, in, in almost like walking gods on earth. Right. And I feel like what happened is, is when we removed that piece of putting them up here.
It allowed so many people to kind of flood through, like anybody can do it. And it's, it's a good thing that anyone with talent can do it, but it makes music something that is like now so accessible. So the value of why it becomes more background than kind of like a [00:12:00] forward industry like what it used to be is because it's becoming so oversaturated.
And then we have things like TikTok that allows people to go viral, which is also good for, it's a good and a bad thing. Yeah. You know, it's a good and a bad thing because something that we may not look at as musicianship. Is gonna go viral and that's now the new standard of music. Yeah. And we'll have control over that, right?
Yeah. So the loss of control of quality Yes. Is where my concern comes in.
Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. Boy great statements again. We spent an hour, hour parsing this . No, this is, this is fascinating. I, I wanna pick on a. On a couple aspects of that, though I agree with your observation that we used to have this sort of shared figures you know, Whitney Houston, Celine, et cetera, et cetera.
And we also had culturally For a relatively short span of time, about a century, actually, if you, if you look at it accurately, [00:13:00] there was this shared experience thing that was in some ways a cultural bond. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm older than you, and there are songs I can hum that anybody within a certain bracket will, will hum along.
And they'll know the song, and I find myself wondering. If a 15 year old today has songs in common with many other 15 year olds, like there was that emotional bonding where he's like, Oh, wait, wow, we both love this
Cloe Luv: song. All love Michael Jackson. We all loved Phil Collins. We all loved. I know exactly what you mean.
Yeah. And not just culturally, but also culturally race, but also age. Right. So my mom and I would have the same experience authentically. Yeah. So, you know, she can be singing Isley Brothers and, and I could be singing Isley Brothers, even though the Isley Brothers would stood a long period of time r and b in my time, in her time.
But we're enjoying it through the whole duration [00:14:00] from age difference. Right. So that I agree with the removal of that is where I feel we've lost something. Yeah, culturally, we lost and I wonder who would be the last person that you
Matthew Dunn: know, who is the last person I we're gonna end up talking about her like, I'm not necessarily a fan.
And it's not because I'm not a fan. It's just my music interests are Diverse. I'm fascinated and impressed as heck with what Taylor Swift is doing. Like, like she's got a whole lot of people listening. And that's wonderful.
Cloe Luv: Yeah, it is wonderful. Yeah.
So when we think, and this is no disrespect to Taylor, I love anyone who's doing something great. But when we talk musicianship, right. Yes. And we go that route, like Katy Perry came in and did her thing. Culturally pink is the standard. Like if we want to talk about people [00:15:00] having this experience, you're screaming most girls and you're screaming just like a pill at the same level, black, white, young, old.
We loved pink. Pink was that great. I feel like trans lucid brand that allowed people of so many diversities to come together. Love, you know, when I, yeah, well, I, and the thing is, it's sad to say even though I'm in music, I know a few of her songs, but I don't know, like the Taylor Swift brand to that degree.
Yeah. And I feel like. Even when I saw, like, Kanye came up and she got the award, I remember thinking, I was like, who is that that won the award? I remember feeling that. And I rea and, and, and, and another person, like, Michael Blubley, he said that a lot. Like, he won all these awards, but people wouldn't know who he was.
And when he said that, I was like, absolutely, who is this guy saying this, that he won all these awards, and I've never heard a song from him. And he knew that about his brand, which was so funny. So sometimes we have these popular people, [00:16:00] and it's like they're popular, but you kind of don't fully understand why because you don't hear it across the board on all the waves.
Yeah. Like the airwaves, like you would like a Beyonce or Katy Perry or a pink, you know what I mean? So that's where it becomes a bit confused. And is the, how were you doing this? When I hear those other people on. Yeah. You know, niche state stations, no matter what the niches, but I'm not hearing you over here, but yet you're still dominating these numbers.
Gaga, another
Matthew Dunn: one who I was going to say, I was going to say that a Gaga, I, I, I, I, I'm immensely impressed by immensely impressed by her, but, you know, put on your. your, your, your brand and business hat, we're not going to abandon the music conversation. Put that on for a second. I'm thinking
Cloe Luv: that
Matthew Dunn: I'm, I'm thinking the young miss Swift is extremely good at the business side of her business.
Oh, brilliant at it. Or her teammates. Yeah. Or a team is like, but, but [00:17:00] like, she, she's, she's the brand. I know she works really, really hard at what she does. And I'm like, okay, if that's working, like if she's extremely good at Finding, tending, growing, knit the right niches. Maybe that's how things work now more.
Cloe Luv: Think of it, what are those right niches for Taylor? Like, we know she does that, a certain type of music, but outside of that, personality wise, like, let's compare her to a bad girl, RiRi. That's a brand, right? So, everything Rihanna puts out, makeup, Fenty, outside of music, because she's built such a strong brand, we're gonna eat it up.
I feel like there's that disconnect with Taylor where we hear like, oh, she's, you know, nice girl. It gives like, all American girl, anyone can kind of be this great. She gives that brand, but it's like, what else? Like, what is the thing that allows me to see me through Taylor? You know, that defies race because I saw me through pink.
You understand what I'm saying? So when you're able to create that kind of brand, that's how you [00:18:00] transcend. and diversify your markets. And that's how there's some people who are great in music. They have huge names, but when they try to go to put out products, the products don't do well. That's true. And that's there's a disconnect between the actual personal brand and the audience.
They may love your musicianship. They may love your performance, but the personal brand has not been established for us to now love. What you're merchandising outside of that.
Matthew Dunn: Right. Well, here, here I'll do it. I'll do, I'll do a weird reach around just for fun. I'm a huge Keith Jarrett fan. The man doesn't know, doesn't care about personal brand, even though he's probably one of the great musicians of the century.
And I'm like, I'm really glad he focuses on the music part and doesn't want to yammer about himself or spin out this or whatever else. And I'm, I'm, I'm delighted that he shares his success in his recordings. We do have a compulsion to want people to, to branch [00:19:00] into the kind of diversification off of that particular talent that may not be what some of them want to do.
And I don't know that that's true of Taylor Swift or not. Let me, let me throw a different question at you because I've talked with my older son who's a musician about this. I said, Hunter, I suspect we'll see fewer and fewer people who have actual competence at an instrument because there's no shortcut.
To learning the trumpet or the piano or the guitar. Well, you, you, you actually can't do Cliff's notes and be competent. You either sit down and practice and learn and have some talent. But if you have talent, you either practice or you don't get good at it. And we seem like such a. short attention span.
Yeah. Jump from thing to thing. Culture now that I wonder if actual musicians like your father are going to be scarcer and scarcer.
Cloe Luv: They are. [00:20:00] And that's the reality of it. And now we have things like AI moving in, making music. So they're writing songs, they're making production. As a matter of fact, one of the publishers that we work with offered us.
You know, a six figure deal to give up one of our catalogs to teach AI how to produce us. And we were like, no, thank you. What it does is what it does, but I'm not going to give you the algorithm to now be me, you know, because that's what makes me, me it doesn't mean that we won't utilize it for fun stuff for ourselves.
It doesn't mean that we can't coexist to give you the T the. The algorithm to produce like my production company now that that's just taking it a little too far. But when we have things like this, who has the ownership of that, right? If I go into AI and I create a beat or I tell it to create something for me, do I have the ownership to now go copyright that?
That's the question of where this is going. Who, who has the creative ownership
Matthew Dunn: of these things? Profound
Cloe Luv: question, yes. And then that's, [00:21:00] you know, and then that's the thing before that is that digital production, right? We have Fruity Loops, we have Reason, we have all these, these platforms where you can Program out sounds.
So you can play that way. So it removed a lot of people from playing traditional instruments because you can program out your music. But what I did find, like my husband, he went to Morgan State, and he played on the drumline, so he can play drums live. And he's kind of self taught a little bit with the piano, but my, he's working with my dad for my dad to give him lessons to get more, you know, even though he does.
The digital programming because he's a musician he understands what a real drum roll sounds like Yeah, so when when he would come when people would come to our studio when we had our studio in brooklyn for eight years, they would be like, how are you getting your drums to sound so live? because he understood how to layer it even if it was digital or what a drum roll should sound like because he [00:22:00] plays live drums so there's still a correlation where I urge people even if you can Do this digitally.
You still want to learn something because that authenticity and those little things, those little accents that you'll, you'll, you'll add into the digital programming will come from your live experiences with understanding your relationship with that instrument.
Matthew Dunn: Yeah, yeah. Again, a bunch of stuff to parse.
Let me ask one cheat question before we talk about AI because I knew we'd end up talking about AI. Yeah, right. You've got kids, right? Yes. Are they taking music lessons?
Cloe Luv: No, well, my kids are so my daughter, I inherited a daughter through my marriage. She dances. So she's, she doesn't take music lessons, but she's very, she's very, a very talented dancer.
And we noticed this and she was great. So she focuses a lot on dance. Her, her, her steps are effortless. It's like her brain just, just executes moves that I'm like, I can't figure this out. But Grace
Matthew Dunn: came with the package, right?
Cloe Luv: With it, you [00:23:00] know so she, she dances my My two smallest King is seven and we're trying to get King into music lessons actually by eight, nine.
And we spoke about that in sports King, King likes. Like every other child. He likes the YouTube. He likes, you know, these kids are so different. And that's, you know, the old saying, they're so different, like even the things that they consume is so different and how they consume it. So I'm like, I remember watching TV shows, right?
So that wasn't just like my mom watched TV shows for generations. We watched structured things, Looney Tunes, Popeye, you know, we got to the Pokemon, but there was still the same type of structure. I look at these kids and they watch like these. 30 second bits of weird, you know, just, just content flying at them quickly.
Yeah. And that's how they're consuming things. And I'm like, there's no storyline for a lot of [00:24:00] this stuff. There's just things happening. So I feel like the traditional things, like I wanted to have my son learn how to play chess at 10. I wanted all these things, but I just feel like culturally it's so different now.
Where it's like, I'm, I'm considered old school now, but even when I was young. The things my mom did was still normal to me. So I want to put them in those things. My youngest, he's only three. So we're still working on speech because he's delayed speech. So he doesn't like fully speak sentences and stuff yet, but he sings.
the most beautiful notes. So like I'll play music and sing with him. He'll try to sing and dance, but he would hit these amazing notes since he was like one years old. So we definitely want to get him to develop that sound more. Yeah.
Matthew Dunn: Yeah. It is. It's got to be daunting, you know, my, my boys are in their 20s, so we kind of cut the edge of the digital explosion of [00:25:00] content, but man, why are different the load on them is, is different.
The load on the, you know, the decisions as a parent has to be fundamentally different. Yeah, I don't know how we'll sort that all out. Yeah, back to, back to your daughter for a sec. Of all the arts, dance, dance is the one of the ones that's just gotta be getting its butt kicked because it's alive. Humans only activity.
You can't, you can't stick it in an AI and clone it. Thank God.
Cloe Luv: But we'll show up. You can't fake it either. No,
Matthew Dunn: no, no, no, no, no, no. I'll just show up and do the concert only. I don't think so. Right. You're going to have to sweat for that one. And who knows, maybe dance will take off because of those inherent you know, human qualities, but the.
Business model for dance has to be a son of a gun these days, like, yeah, really [00:26:00] tough to keep it going. So hats off to the people that can't not do that, which seems to be what's required of a dancer. Track back to AI for a second. I know we're going from dance to kids to AI. That's the
Cloe Luv: conversation I love all over the place.
I'm ready. Have you
Matthew Dunn: followed the New York Times? led lawsuit against open AI. The New York Times said, basically, we didn't say you could use our content for that. And the case is live right now. It hasn't been decided
Cloe Luv: yet. No, I haven't followed that story, but I've been seeing, but you get
Matthew Dunn: the gist of it, right?
It's like when you got approached about turning loose your catalog, what, you know, what are, what's your, what you're, what's your thinking, at least at the moment about that balancing act between turning loose is some control for the potential. output versus saying you can't
Cloe Luv: have it at all. So I think that there with everything there's, there's balance and there, so let's [00:27:00] take it to music, right?
We also see a lot of lawsuits from artists and record labels because We didn't allow you to recreate this. Yep. That's plagiarism. There's no if, ands and buts those, that's copyright infringement. That's plagiarism. Yep. It doesn't matter if you're AI or your person cannot take the likeness, the likeliness of someone and create what you want from an in distributed.
It's just not, that's not how things work. Now the question is, when it comes to that, if it's not for sale, right, and they're not monetizing enough of it, is it just promotional use only? So that's where the legal terms are going to come in because that would be considered like how people do mixtapes.
It's not for sale, it's for promotional use only. So does the AI still have the rights to do that in the concept of how we mixtape things, right? Put together this voice and, and all that stuff, but When it comes to the voice of someone, that's so specific to create a song versus using a beat that you did something [00:28:00] over or the lyrics that, you know, you're re singing in another way.
When you use someone's voice or their face, their image, you have to have permission to do that. That's just, that's, you can't do that. That's, that's open for a lawsuit. When it comes to content. Public content. If the AI, like any person, is creating an original output of thought from the public content.
Yes. Deciding where it comes from, then it's no different than when we do it MLA style or, you know, when we do papers or we publish something and we cite it. Cite your sources, sure. But if you're not citing your source and you're, you're making it like you're creating this. then it is also plagiarism. It's just very there just has to be those barriers and stipulations of what the laws are, what they stand for, and how it's being violated or not violated.
And should it be that you can't [00:29:00] have anything? No, because with anything that's public, you just have to cite the source. So maybe that needs to be what has to be implemented in. So it can be used because then the question is going to be, does AI have the same rights that humans have? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
It comes down to, you know, that's a good question.
Matthew Dunn: One possible outcome I see In let's call it a five year time span, this is a hypothetical, but I, I could see a great AI model redo where we end up, we as a, we as a nation, let's say, end up saying, you know what? Copyright holders get to say whether your machine can ingest their stuff or not.
And if you don't have direct license permission to suck it in, parse it and make it part of your model, you don't get to use it. Public domain is public. Yes, but that means it's quite old. Yeah, copyright regime. But if you don't have [00:30:00] permission from Chloe to use that article, she wrote, you don't get to ingest it.
So everyone take your AI model, throw it on the on the bit heap and start over with public domain content or permitted content that I'm pretty sure the AI companies realize that they've got a risk there. And I think at least one of them has come out and said, Oh my gosh, we can't keep innovating unless we get sort of unfettered access to human health.
And as a writer, thinker, artist, lover of all of the above, I'm like, go pounce in, right? Yeah. It's good enough for the writer, musician, dancer, to make a living with that creative ingenuity. Now, why, why, why should you get a free
Cloe Luv: ride? I absolutely love that. I do feel like licensing. Would also be a great medium between the two if it's not public domain, like you said, and then that way we've removed the fear of, oh, [00:31:00] AI is taking everything and it's taking money out of our pocket.
Just like you would do any corporation or any business. You want to use my content, you license it or you license the likeliness of it. So I do feel like that would be a great medium for people to have that ability to negotiate the licenses of their content. And then we'll see a lot of, we'll see less pushback on what AI does because it's not just completely removing and stealing, but we are coming together to evolve where you're making money, you're, you're, you're being innovative and we're still showing that there's a need for both of us.
Yeah. So I think that's a great
Matthew Dunn: solution. We could also end up doing a compromise like the copyright act of 1908 that instantiated the, the, the mechanicals versus composition split in music where you go like, you wrote this song. Cool. You get a statutory rate for play, for plays of your music. I don't have to negotiate with you to play your song, [00:32:00] but I do have to pay you.
If your song and the rate is set by Congress, like we could, we could end up doing something akin to that possibly. And I know it, it looks, it looks incredibly complicated and impossible right now, but
Cloe Luv: why? I don't think it's complicated because we have models that show that we have Spotify, we have YouTube.
So there are things in place that follow that somewhere else. So all we have to do is take that same concept and put it here. Right. And then if anything that needs to be tweaked is tweaked. But The model, like you're saying the there's a space where something like this exists. So if it's that, okay, I wrote this or you're using my likelihood.
So it's an elevated rate. Then we just tweak the rates, but the system exists already. So you're absolutely right.
Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I think we have to be heavily engaged in this conversation right now. Right. It's like, we, we can't just leave it to, I guess it's happening. So we're let's just roll over. Yeah. I think the [00:33:00] consequences are too high.
And look at this. We're 40 minutes in. We haven't talked about email yet, but this is
Cloe Luv: a good way to wrap it around because an email list as a musician. So it's still a part of the conversation of how you can leverage that to create a salary for yourself. Right. So as we know, as you know, that we'll let everyone know that a lot of people are moving away from the traditional.
Social media marketing and they're trying to get those assets to something that they can own, which is an email list. And with your email list, you can continue to nurture. You have analytics that you won't get specifically on social media. You can send out surveys and really. really nurture a list in a more personal, direct, warm way than on social media.
So when you build a good email list, let's say you're a musician and this is something I actually used to teach[00:34:00] my musicians when I had people signed to me on the label or I did consulting. If you work a job and you make 50, 000 a year and you can replace that job for doing what you love, 50, 000 a year, you are successful.
You can't really look at the millions of dollars that people are making because you can get there. But if step one is that I can make 50, 000 a year doing music. And I was doing that same thing eight hours a day for a job. I am successful. I'm a successful musician One of the ways you can do that is by merchandising selling your album, of course ten dollars a pop doing local shows Doing online shows, but your email list if you have a good email list and let's say you have 10 000, people on your email list and you have a product that is 50 a collection, right?
So depending on the type of musician you are, maybe you do a two, a two, a double album or something, 49. 99, 50. [00:35:00] And you have 10, 000 people and 10 percent buys. You made the 50, 000 right there just through your email list. You haven't sold a t shirt yet, you haven't sold a concert ticket yet. You know, you haven't done any of those things.
And then there's so many innovative little things that you could do for 10, 5 that I just get someone to put their credit card in that you can keep nurturing through your email list. You can do it, of course, through social media, but it's a lot more effective because these people have opted in in some way or shape or form to say that I want to share in this content with you.
So it's a warmer cell. So that's, that's one of the ways that artists can still remove their salary and make it through you know, their artistry by leveraging one of the things is their email list.
Matthew Dunn: Does the average. You know, new up and coming musician that you talk with and, you know, coach over coffee, realize that that's important that they should pay attention to it.
Cloe Luv: Absolutely not. The average business person[00:36:00]
hasn't even gotten onto that yet. So, you know, the thing, the thing that I've noticed between Both entrepreneurship and musicianship. It's the same thing. People who are driven by their passion and their talent of what they want to do are driven just by that. It doesn't necessarily make them fundamental business people.
They just have this thing that they want to do that they're really good at. And it's a valuable thing most of the time, but the other structural parts, that's not what their forte is. So there's a lot of passionate entrepreneurs. I've met so many entrepreneurs that. Have made millions and still don't understand business credit.
Like I've met so many people where when you meet them at that level, you just assume that they know all these things. And then you're like flabbergasted that they don't, but the thing that they're passionate about has taken off and people have bought in, but it doesn't mean that they learned the business systems on how to properly leverage and monetize it.
But that's, [00:37:00] I have a saying, and it's always that, you know, obtaining is easy, but maintaining is hard. So that's why. You can see the rise and the fall sometimes just as quickly people, because they, they obtained, they understood how to get it, but the backend part on how to maintain that they, they didn't quite get around to that yet.
So if you don't know it, hire someone when you start making money, you know, to, to come in, hire someone at a C suite level in your company, right? You don't have to be a millionaire if you're making. 000 a year, hire someone that is at least 50, 000 remote that has the experience that maybe retired, you know, who, who wants to come in and do this kind of work and work from home will take the salary, but bring the things that you don't know.
Cause you also don't know what you don't know. Right. Yeah. So you got to find those people who know those things. When you start making some money so that you can maintain and grow. That's
Matthew Dunn: why that's why the bands of yore always had, always had managers, right? [00:38:00] Absolutely. I got it. I got it. I got to think.
And if you take advice from like Dan Martell, it's like. Buy back your time to focus on the thing that you're particularly good at,
Cloe Luv: right? Yeah, absolutely. So you can show up 100 percent in that all the time. Yeah, absolutely. Even going into my talent of, of how I do business and my vision and, and, and how I'm able to materialize visions.
I have a team now. I have a social media person. I have an ads guy. I have a VP. I have other people so I can literally focus on being in the top. I used to say 2 percent but the top percentile of. Coaches in doing what I do. Yeah. Every, you know, reading books all the time, digestive information, cosmic information, as well as traditional business information.
So, you know, being able to work on that craft of what makes my experience unique is something you need time on. You need to be able to craft that and, and get that together. So I, you know, I hire people myself, so I don't just. [00:39:00] Tell people that I live that life
Matthew Dunn: as well. You live that. Well, the fact that the fact that there was a book in reach for you to lift up in front of the screen.
Cloe Luv: My book is nothing but books surrounded by me.
Matthew Dunn: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for that. Also let you know, like, like learning a musical instrument. I I do find myself concerned that not enough people have their nose in a book all the time, but maybe it's above my pay grade to try and help solve that. I don't know.
Focus and concentration are precious. Thing and you have to get really defensive about it. I'm guessing you really have to get defensive about no, no. No, I'm reading this, right? Yeah, Charlie Munger Warren Buffett both say that's what they spend most of their time doing is reading thinking and they keep their calendar quite clear Yeah.
Cloe Luv: So I remember watching I think it was the [00:40:00] movie, The Sex in the City movie. And she would go away. I forget everyone's names. It's terrible. But the mom with the dark hair, she would, she had the kids and she couldn't take the kids, like everything that was coming with it. So she at the end would spend a week.
I think in the city, like either once a month or once every two weeks, right? So that she can just do simple things like reading, right? Just to get away and allow her thoughts to, to digest. And I spoke to my husband about taking solo trips myself where, yeah, I want to go with my books. And I just want to not be in a routine of.
Getting up and doing this and doing that, but just I'm able to read and digest my, my information and, and create whatever comes from it. Just sit in that philosophy and evolve into the best genius me. Right. So I do feel like there's so much importance to have that time and that space to, to cultivate that part of yourself.
And not everything, there's, there's a different relationship when you read [00:41:00] something on a page versus just looking at it on a screen. Yes. And your brain absorbs it different, your brain digests it different, and it triggers different things in your brain that's happening. Yeah, as well. So you want to read as much as you can.
It's a lot harder for us and I'm not going to say it was easy. I was not an avid reader growing up. You know, I read because I had to in high school. I read because I had to in college. I read because I had to in grad school, but now I read because I want to. So that made it a lot. easier for me because I'm like, no, I want to do this.
I'm not forced to for a grade. I want to know what's in there. I want to read it and hear the voice in my head of how I'm narrating the story as well without someone else dictating it for me, what my original output is from it. So I enjoy
Matthew Dunn: what's your balance fiction, nonfiction these days.
Cloe Luv: I'm, I'm more nonfiction.
Because I like to read things that I can put into action. So I like to read things that give me like [00:42:00] tangible skills. So I'm more so nonfiction, but I am, a lot of people don't know. I am a movie buff. I love film and I love TV. I consume a lot of it. And I was like, where do you have the time for it?
I'm like, Oh, my computer typing up events, scripts, and I'm watching binge watching shows. So that fiction is my jam. I love all things, mysticals, vampires, fairies. I love everything that takes your imagination outside of. So it's crazy. I don't read that stuff. I only read the things that give me actionable skills and like that I can just, but what I watch and what I enjoy is the exact opposite.
So it's, it's, it's that balance.
Matthew Dunn: So that actually, it makes, that makes wonderful sense. Right. And we, we, we have the luxury of being able to choose T up and watch that stuff, you know, 10 years ago, that was hard. 20 years [00:43:00] ago, like you really had to be kind of an avid film buff to have a decent picture and a decent library.
Yeah. You know, I mean, I remember going to video rental stores to you. Yes. Dang. I used to do my kids know to
Cloe Luv: as a kid. When I was about maybe eight years old, I had a little, I mean, he must have paid me like $2 a day or something like that, and I would go wipe down the video store boxes. It was an older man Wow.
That I called my grandpa. So he's on the video store on my block and I would come in sometimes and like, wipe all the dust and, you know, organize them, rewind the tapes. So I
remember that. And I, and I, and I would get free movies. He would give me free movies. Yeah. Right. So I always got to see all the new stuff and I always got to like, watch all these movies. My first. My first little gig, even though it goes against child labor laws, it wasn't real work. But, you know, even though the responsibility was in a movie store.
Oh,
Matthew Dunn: that's, oh, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. [00:44:00] Yeah, I can, I can see it. You know what I mean? It's like opening scene, opening scene of your biopic. Testing all the boxes. Testing all the boxes.
Well, as we wrap up, where, where, where are you focusing most these days with the you know, the, the business empire that is Chloe Love? So
Cloe Luv: my focus, my main focus is Leadership Ascended. And it's basically, I focus on those leaders who have impact driven foundations. So I coach entrepreneurs. On how to monetize off of their impact driven businesses.
I closed a brick and mortar in March. So I really don't want to work with like brick and mortars and, you know, the leasing and all that stuff. And there's so much opportunity for service based entrepreneurs. So I work with people on how to [00:45:00] authentically monetize on that. And do anywhere from multi six figures to, I have two seven figure clients.
So. You know, and yeah, good for them too, right? So I, and my focus is without burnout because I, that's a big part of my story. My focus is without burnout. That was a big part of my story. Leveraging things like business credit, the way that, you know, people don't understand. I worked with another coach who said she made 1.
5 million and this, that, and she thought that she had to wait two years to start using business credit. And I'm like, no, no, no. There's a way that, you know, you set things up where you can leverage these things. So I, I don't want people to just make good money and have passion. I also don't want people's health.
To be compromised by burning out. I had to undergo two surgeries in 90 days because it was so like my obsession, that compulsiveness. If I was resting, I'd be like, well, no, I can watch TV and work or no, I shouldn't sleep right now because [00:46:00] this is a missed opportunity and I can't get ahead if I just do five more minutes.
And it's not a good mindset. It's not a good way to live. It's not healthy. So I, I work on the impactful entrepreneur, but also in a way that you monetize on the highest, the most authentic way to you, but without burnout, we're not, we're not, I'm not saying there's not going to be some work involved, but it's not going to be that 70 hour a week work at all.
We're not doing that. That's not it. And I teach things that a lot of people don't teach. And I introduced practices, you know, and I work with open minded people. I, I specifically. No disrespect to anyone, but I don't. I don't specifically like to work with overly religious people because there's so many like confines and boxes that they, they, they function in.
So I like to work with people who are more like spiritual based and are open to the universe and, and I believe in God. So you hear it in my conversation. So I really want to [00:47:00] work with the. the clients that are going to get the most out of the teachings and the experiences that I have, and you'll see it and how they're able to quantum leap.
So that's what I'm focusing on. And I'm doing monthly. I'm doing free master classes that introduced. My teachings to world and and that's that's mainly my focus for the Chloe Love brand There's always going to be other things going on
Definitely other business ventures, but right now this is the conversation
Matthew Dunn: And the mompreneur thing does take some time as well, we know, right?
Cloe Luv: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the kids are here. I'm, I'm, I'm lucky that I'm able to have this home office and work. And I've also created boundaries for myself as of this year.
I mainly only work downstairs, so I've been leaving my laptop down here. When I'm working downstairs, I'm working downstairs when I'm working in my office, I'm working in my office. If I'm, you know, in the backyard, I have a nice little tent in the summer, and I'm back there, you know, working, that's it.
But once I [00:48:00] leave this floor, and I'm with my family, it's, it has to be something that's like a deadline, and I just have to get this stuff done. But even then, I try to stay in my office. Yeah. So that when I leave, I can just, you know, pour into my kids and I know, you know, one second, mommy just has to finish this, you know?
Yeah. So I've, I've been consciously working on that separation.
Matthew Dunn: Oh, good for you. That's it. The work creeping into life thing is insidious and it, it takes a really conscious, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes physical barricade, you go, yeah, keep that down otherwise it'll, it'll be seven by 24 and that's not, not healthy.
So hopefully someone listening to this is masterclass. Ooh, coach. I want to talk to her. Where do people come find you?
Cloe Luv: Sure. My website is www. chloelove. com. So that's C L O E L U V. Same thing on Instagram, same thing on [00:49:00] LinkedIn, same thing on Facebook. So we're branded across the board. Chloe Love, C L O E L U V.
Matthew Dunn: C L O E L U V. Well, Chloe, this has been a delight. Thank you so much for making the time and calling in. I think we'll stop recording and finish our conversation. How's that?
Cloe Luv: Yes.