A Conversation With Tim Moore of SocketLabs

Billions of people send hundreds of billions of emails a day by clicking a button; the technical complexities beneath that planet-wide and essentially free 1:1 messaging system aren't something they have to think about. But Tim Moore and SocketLabs think about those complexities all day and every day. SocketLabs is one of those wonderful, fierce, independent companies tackling an incredibly ambitious goal — making email message delivery smarter. Tim shared some insights from over 15 years of deep experience in the email space. We touched on where the big cloud providers are with email (nowhere, pretty much) and why. We threw darts at deliverability. Tim 'onboarded' as CEO during the pandemic; it's interesting to hear how he and the team have made that work, and what it says about the future of work in a deeply technical company like SocketLabs. Embrace the chaos, says Tim. Super fun conversation with a really smart guy.

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00]

[00:00:09] Matthew Dunn: Good morning. This is Dr. Matthew Dunn host of the future of email marketing. My guest today, delighted to finally snag some of his time is Tim Moore, CEO of SocketLabs, Tim. Welcome.

[00:00:22] Tim Moore: Thank you. You thank you for having me. We've got

[00:00:25] Matthew Dunn: a slight, um, we've got a slight zoo. Audio delay. I get, I get to tell a tale zone.

[00:00:31] My age, I was in Australia. This is decades. It goes in Australia. My then girlfriend now, now wife of many, many years was here and we would get those precious phone calls. And we got used to the idiot delay. You know, you get frustrated with the phone call, you realize, oh, there's this little. And it makes you feel a little bit out of sync and it seems like we've got a little audio lag going on zoom right now.

[00:00:56] So if I step on something allergies,

[00:01:00] Tim Moore: no worries at all. And I imagine there are a few people using zoom at the moment. So we're battling it's possible

[00:01:06] Matthew Dunn: here in the, uh, hopefully the downhill slope of a, of the COVID pandemic. I think this is, I think zoom is one of the companies that go, oh, well, that was kind of good for business.

[00:01:17] Uh, so SocketLabs. Smarter messaging infrastructure, I think is the phrase you used when we were chatting before we started recording here, uh, do the elevator version of SocketLabs for someone who's.

[00:01:31] Tim Moore: Yeah, absolutely. So the, the company as a whole has been around for quite some time. So it's over a decade old and really where our roots are, is in sending infrastructure and sending infrastructure through the two kind of what I would qualify as the, the key mechanisms by which email is deployed.

[00:01:46] It's either deployed on prem. It's deployed through. Um, SocketLabs started, uh, with on-prem. They eventually evolved into cloud, um, as many, uh, have in, in the space. And, you know, that's, that's really where the roots are is, is with an email infrastructure. Now, I would say where we're headed and where we think the opportunity exists within the market.

[00:02:06] And where the need exists within the marketplace is really taking that email infrastructure that largely hasn't undergone a lot of change over the past 10 years or so, and start to re-imagine it and start to think of ways that we can make the sending pipe smarter than it is today. So take a w what is a relatively unsophisticated and, and somewhat commoditize Sunday.

[00:02:26] And really turn it into something that's intelligent and something that can play nicely with some of the other advancements that have been made in the space and the marketing automation and the personalization and the segmentation spaces, and really allow those, uh, those applications and those companies to get the most out of their email programs.

[00:02:45] Matthew Dunn: So run that through a relatively simple example, you know, Sending an, a campaign to a thousand people they've got permission to send to them. What are some of the smarter things that you either do or envision.

[00:03:00] Tim Moore: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the way that I would describe it right now is you have a few different hops that things really start to make.

[00:03:08] So if you start at the far left, you have your data intake process, which is kind of becoming CDPs right now. Uh, so you have your customer data platforms where data and data gets pushed from a customer data platform into a marketing automation engine. Um, and in a lot of cases, what then happens is that marketing automation.

[00:03:28] Engine is then using, uh, w what I would call a relatively unsophisticated message piping to fulfill that last mile of email channel delivery. What we really want to do is we want to bring intelligence to that last mile of channel delivery. We don't want to do things that are going to be stepping on the toes of the marketing automation companies.

[00:03:46] They've all come a long ways. They're incredibly sophisticated. The targeting that they can do. I couldn't have imagined 15 years ago when I started. Yeah. Um, so what we really want to do is we want to enable that that's certainly one use case. And then I would say the second case that we talk about is what you're seeing is more of a transactional use of email, uh, which is developers connecting an application to email, and what they're wanting there is they want to know that when they've connected their application to email, that email provider is going to do the best to make sure that that message gets delivered in the best way possible.

[00:04:18] Right?

[00:04:19] Matthew Dunn: So you're part of, I mean, you're part of. You know, the increasingly, uh, fabric of API APIs. Um, with, with a smarter, I want to send this and, and tell me some more back. Right?

[00:04:34] Tim Moore: Absolutely. And so much of it just comes down to that, that intelligence layer. And so that intelligence layer can be powered by a variety of things.

[00:04:42] And what we're really interested in is we're building email intelligence, that's reacting to the real-time signals that you see data email. Pretty data, rich signal in general,

[00:04:52] Matthew Dunn: it is a data rich signal, and I was hoping we'd stumbled into this terrain. It is a data rich signal, um, with, with some funny constraints and funny history, different, different than a lot of the protocols that I think marketers in.

[00:05:11] Are accustomed to them. I mean, this is not a website we're talking about here. And as we found to our shock in the last six months or so, uh, some of the signals can get interrupted in ways we didn't expect. Absolutely.

[00:05:23] Tim Moore: Absolutely. Flip that with, with all of the changes on that front. I mean, it is a really dynamic state right now and yeah.

[00:05:30] And so what we really try to focus on is we try to focus on this marriage of data that, that can potentially exist within that. It's triangulating the data that you're getting in real time from mailbox providers. You're getting it from marketing automation companies. You're getting it from the email channel itself, the recipients.

[00:05:45] And so really starting to marry up all of those signals and take actions that are going to ensure the best success for that message to be. Um, now not just delivered successfully, but delivered in a timely manner, um, and also delivered in the efficient

[00:05:59] Matthew Dunn: yeah, that, that matters as well. One of the things that fascinates me about talking to people in the email space, a couple things, one people who work in email space.

[00:06:09] Really genuinely relish it. You know, it's like, look, I know it's been around, but this is a lot more complicated than you think. I know you send email from your desktop server, but there's a lot behind it. And there's a lot of room to grow and expand to do even more interesting things in ops it dwarves most of the other channels in terms of actual volume intimacy of the customer and so on.

[00:06:35] Right. I mean, you've been in the email space alone. I

[00:06:39] Tim Moore: have. Yeah. So I started an email in 2005. Um, and I think, uh, as with many, uh, once email gets a hold of you, I don't think it tends to let go.

[00:06:49] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. And, but, and you've worked at, I, I read through, uh, I read through your profile on LinkedIn. I think you've, you've worked in a variety of pieces.

[00:07:00] Most of them seem to have touched on the delivery and the deliverability, uh, dimensions of emails.

[00:07:07] Tim Moore: Absolutely. And I think if I look back at my career over the past 17 years now, um, I would say one thing that I've really tried to do is I've tried to get a full understanding of every angle of the email ecosystem.

[00:07:19] It's such a nuanced. Um, and it's such a sophisticated channel that has so much potential that still hasn't been unleashed. I agree. I really just tried to build the fundamental understanding of who are all the players in the space. How do things connect, where are there opportunities for things to work better than they've worked traditionally?

[00:07:38] And. So I've, I've, I've tried to do that through accumulating experience at email deliverability companies like two 50. Okay. And return path, um, marketing clouds, like Oracle and, uh, email security companies, such as ValiMail.

[00:07:53] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. I I'm curious your thoughts. Cause you know, now you're, you're steering the steering, the ship, right?

[00:07:59] You're the guy with the captain's hat on for SocketLabs. Um, one of the things that struck me about the email space is. It was cloud before cloud had a label to some extent. And I don't see the big clouds having the slightest idea what to really do in the email space. I mean, Amazon's got a SES and I I've talked to almost nobody who uses it.

[00:08:26] For example.

[00:08:28] Tim Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. I think when you look at the big cloud providers, um, you know, be it Azure or Amazon or Google, um, it's not something they fully embraced yet. I don't know that they quite know how to react to it. I think, yeah. That's probably going to change. I do, uh, I mean, you're, you're starting to see some of those shifts happen.

[00:08:47] Uh, SES, you know, started very much as a symbol of emails. I'm getting too old and it's starting to evolve a bit. You're seeing Amazon start to focus a little bit more on the automation and the UI layer with, uh, with pinpoint, I believe is the name of the product. Um, so there, there are some movements in that space, but it's certainly not as fast as you would expect with, with those types of players.

[00:09:08] Matthew Dunn: Seems like it's more, it's, it's more difficult. To put a block on the diagram and says handles email because, because of the complexity that you already alluded to, and, and frankly, the, um, the sort of unpredictability and nuance in is more complicated than it looks kind of thing. I mean, compute power, spin up a VM.

[00:09:30] I know that's not simple, but it's nuts, bolts and screws for the digital age. And an email's not just one nut, one bolt. There's a whole.

[00:09:41] Tim Moore: You know, it, it takes me back to a sane and I I'm, I can't attribute it to any one person because I've heard it from multiple people through the years. Uh, but it's the same goes, uh, sending an email is quite simple.

[00:09:52] Uh, sending email well is very, very difficult.

[00:09:56] Matthew Dunn: Yeah, there you go. There you go. Well, uh, it will be, it will be fun to ringside seat and watch, watch it evolve. It sounds like. Yeah. One of the strategies that you guys have a foot is, is to stay is to run smarter. Um, if, if some of the simple stuff starts to get more commoditized by, uh, big cloud providers, like.

[00:10:20] Tim Moore: Absolutely. I think there's always going to be a need for a smarter email sending tool. Um, and I think, uh, uh, part of what makes us good at what we do is we know our surroundings. We know where we fit within the space, but we don't try to boil the. Um, we don't try to do marketing automation better than a marketing automation company can do it.

[00:10:40] We don't try to do segmentation better than a CDT can do it. Uh, you know, we, we really try to focus on our core competency, which is really the successful and intelligent delivery of email. So that's absolutely where we're focused, moving through.

[00:10:53] Matthew Dunn: Gotcha. Gotcha. So, um, so you're you fit, you know, you're, you're in the more invisible piece.

[00:11:01] If you will, of the, of the job that an agency or an email marketer or an email marketing department is up to vital, but, but they're not necessarily staring at, you know, SocketLabs logo on a user interface all day long.

[00:11:17] Tim Moore: Absolutely. We're, we're a bit more behind the scenes. And I do hope with us really embracing the intelligence, sending an email that does it, it is something that is, is more highly valued by the industry.

[00:11:29] Um, I think it's always been kind of viewed as, as a given, uh, that if, if we do everything up to that sending of email, um, it's going to go out the door and pipe is going to connect to pipe B and things. Um, I think what we really would like to do is we'd like to start to bring some interesting variables to that because that's just an area that really hasn't been optimized yet.

[00:11:49] If you look at the industry as a whole, there's been optimization all around the messaging pipe, but nobody's actually optimized the messaging pipe. Um, you know, when you look at the optimization, uh, personalization has obviously come a long ways. You have subject line optimization, you have content optimization, send time optimization.

[00:12:08] If everything about email can be optimized. But the one thing that nobody's really done is nobody's really figured out, are we sending an email the most intelligent way is email being routed the most intelligent way? Are we reacting in real time to data signals that we should be reacting to? And so that's where we really want to start to challenge the status.

[00:12:27] Matthew Dunn: Good. I'm glad to hear that. I'd actually have to say my reaction to the list you just went through is I feel like, I feel like the actual content piece of email is still a poor COVID. At best know, companies will spend a zillion dollars on the tool. That's going to send campaigns and send ugly stuff, irrelevant stuff.

[00:12:50] And don't really know what's inside the envelope at a certain point. I challenged some of the other day on a call. They were talking about, uh, you know, a case study and I'm like, so did you like, do you really understand the, you know, the content that made the difference? And the answer honestly is no, there's no, there's no real measures and metrics.

[00:13:06] And, uh, To that piece of it, which baffles and frustrates me to leave that aside. There's definitely room for smart delivery. So it's still, it's cool to hear where you're headed. I looked at a stat on the, on the, um, on the SocketLabs website. You, you touch, what is it? 600 million messages day. Well, it's

[00:13:28] Tim Moore: it's data points.

[00:13:29] So, uh, when we're looking at, uh, all the data points that we're ingesting, I mean, that just speaks to some of the data rich signals that exist with an email. And so what we really want to do is we want to make sure those data signals don't go unused. I think in too many cases, uh, we aren't fully leveraging the ability to.

[00:13:47] Intelligently sending through interpreting data signals intelligently. Um, and, uh, it's, it's almost all this email data I don't want to say goes to waste, but it certainly is sub optimally.

[00:13:58] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. It goes to waste is good. So what are, what are, what are at least a couple of the, you know, layman or a business person would get it?

[00:14:07] Examples of signals not necessarily used to. Yeah. So I

[00:14:13] Tim Moore: would say certainly the way that, so let's, let's take a multitenant center. So let's take somebody who sends on behalf of others. So a marketing automation company, for example, there's some really interesting things that can be done with how you pool IPS and how you segment customers and how you make sure that a bad customer doesn't negatively impact good customers.

[00:14:34] And most importantly, how do you identify quickly and remediate a bad. Uh, so I think there's a ton of opportunity when within that. Um, you know, one of the things, when you talk about somebody connecting a developer, connecting an application to email, I think one of the areas that we really want to start to focus on is getting to those folks early and installing some of those deliverability principles early because of.

[00:14:58] Really easy. Well, it's, it's, I should say it's easier to do things right from the start than it is to go back and fix something that's already broken. Um, so we, we really want to install some of those deliverability principles and some of them are done through people and guidance and some of them are done through product and intelligence, but we want to make sure that those values are graphs really early in the process.

[00:15:19] Uh, so people are off on the right foot, um, you know, before, before they do run into issues. And so they're sending in the right way, uh, right off the. Uh, and I, I think that's something the industry struggled with a little bit, uh, I don't think deliverability principles and concepts and intelligent sending strategies happen early enough in the life cycle of people that are using.

[00:15:42] Uh, I think too often, it's just, it's it's too expensive or it's too. The solutions are too over engineered or, um, you know, the, the offerings are overkill. I don't think there's a great path for somebody who's just getting to that size where deliverability really shouldn't. Uh, I don't think there's a great entry into that world for them.

[00:16:02] And so that's one of the things that we really want to focus on is not just catering to the largest, most sophisticated centers in the world. That's absolutely what a lot of our next gen platforms are going to be designed to do, but also really starting to focus on those folks that don't have a deliverability resource internally, and they don't need a full-time deliverability resource, but those companies that we can help them by intelligently sending their email.

[00:16:25] Eliminate the need for that full-time role and start to focus on programmatically, solving some of that and educating them.

[00:16:32] Matthew Dunn: So rough analogy. Um, there was a time when, uh, a business of fill in the blank size would, would tee up the we're going to replace our website. We're going to put a new website in place and they, they merrily jump into what the page looked like in the design and not really.

[00:16:52] Pay attention to search engine optimization until somewhere, somewhere down the line. Now, honestly, most of the tools that grapples websites have like, look, you got to consider this, this and this in terms of the SEO dimensions of this site from the very beginning. Um, and it, it, you know, it starts to build it in because it's hard to recover.

[00:17:14] It's hard to recover your, uh, your, you know, your search engine ranking. If you mess that up. Um, and I'm using edited a rough now. To deliverability fair.

[00:17:24] Tim Moore: Absolutely. And when I, when I think about deliverability as a whole and just email delivery, um, what you really want is you want your infrastructure provider to get you that deliverability, that.

[00:17:36] Um, you, you don't want to be shot in the foot by, by things that either you or they are doing. Um, so you, you want them to get the deliverability that you deserve or delivery? Um, I would use both in this case because I think both are applicable. Um, and then what you really want to do in the long-term is you want to always deserve better.

[00:17:52] And so that's really what we want to focus on. And, and I think there's a nice way you can do that through a combination of, uh, services and expertise, but also through technology that does a lot of that

[00:18:04] for.

[00:18:05] Matthew Dunn: Right. Right. And, and stuff that a step that even a good size email shop is probably not ready to handle themselves because there's considered amount of expertise, technology, data involved in doing that.

[00:18:18] You know, there's a, there's a, I'm guilty of inside baseball as much as anybody else. I mean, when we talk about deliverability, I think we, we both probably have the working assumption about how precarious that is and how damaging it can be. If you, you know, if you screw it up, even in it, even inadvertently it's like, why are half of our emails not actually getting to people?

[00:18:41] Well, it's a deliverability issue. And if you didn't realize that it's a big deal, it's a big. And it's a black art,

[00:18:50] Tim Moore: you know, it, it's such an interesting combination of art and science that exists behind deliverability. Um, it's, that's what makes email's such a nuanced channel and that's what makes it so exciting too.

[00:19:00] Yeah. Um, and when you look at the industry as a whole, there's, there's certainly a greater demand for deliverability expertise than the supply can permit right now.

[00:19:10] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. I suppose that's that's fair. Um, and then. It's, you know, since we're in a channel that still grows like lickety split every year, um, and gets more complicated, you were referencing just how dynamic the space is right now.

[00:19:28] Uh, I don't see that need receding any time soon. And it doesn't seem to me, I'd be curious your reaction to this. It doesn't seem to me that, um, that it's at the level where you can bake the. Entirely into the API and make it, uh, you know, make it justice science. Like there's, there's, there's some people smarts and problem solving and very complex.

[00:19:52] This relates to that involved in sorting out deliverability. Yeah,

[00:19:56] Tim Moore: absolutely. And that's scenario focus for us because we do recognize that there is, there is a supply issue when it comes to deliverability expertise. And so what we really want to do is we want to focus on programmatically solving, all the things that we can, that's going to get us.

[00:20:11] Portion of the way there. Um, but it doesn't get us all the way. There, there will always be a need for that human deliverability expert. And so what we want to become as a very friendly tool to them, um, you know, we want to give them the data that they're going to need to make intelligent decisions and recommendations to their customers or their companies.

[00:20:28] Uh, and we want to do a lot of the more, uh, we want to do some of the table stakes stuff for them that really isn't being done yet.

[00:20:35] Matthew Dunn: Gotcha. Gotcha. And I'm going to guess have, have the. You know, hooks data, affordances tool sets in place to make the person who is working on the deliverability issue, uh, better equipped to do the jobs.

[00:20:51] Like a lot of tech stacks. Didn't formerly didn't have security mindset built in, and now increasingly you kind of have to why, cause you kind of have to, so, uh, uh, a different analogy for deliverability.

[00:21:07] Tim Moore: Absolutely. And it's something that we certainly want to do. It's near and dear to our hearts. If you look at our senior leadership team, almost everyone has deliverability experience.

[00:21:16] Um, it's, it's a deliverability company at its core.

[00:21:20] Matthew Dunn: Cool. Now SocketLabs is a company. Um, I think you're in Colorado, correct? That's correct.

[00:21:29] Tim Moore: And one of the few, me too.

[00:21:32] Matthew Dunn: Oh, how about that? Don't live there now, but, um, yeah. Yeah. Uh, if you, do you, do you know where swatch is? That's always my test. I don't know.

[00:21:41] Tim Moore: Give me another Kaleida

[00:21:42] Matthew Dunn: is yes. Montevista yep. In between those two. Okay. Perfect population. 500 lived there when I was, uh, when I was a wee, a wee lad on the, yeah. Uh, love, love, color. And it looks like you've spent most too much of your career. In your home state, which is awesome.

[00:21:59] Tim Moore: You know what, I've never left.

[00:22:01] Uh, at least not in person. Uh, I certainly have virtually.

[00:22:05] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. And it's all good labs itself, virtual in terms of footprint and where, where the P.

[00:22:11] Tim Moore: Uh, we are, our roots were, uh, just outside of Philadelphia, um, and, uh, kind of post pandemic. Uh, the majority of our head count has been distributed and that's probably the way we'll always do things now.

[00:22:23] That's right. And

[00:22:23] Matthew Dunn: you, you, you took over this, this, this role in the company. Uh, within the pandemic time period, didn't you?

[00:22:31] Tim Moore: It was, yeah. Yeah. So it was, uh, I guess maybe if midpoint,

[00:22:37] Matthew Dunn: well, what, uh, what would it feel like building, uh, you know, building a plane line on the, on the fly like that, you

[00:22:45] Tim Moore: know, it was, uh, it was more comfortable than I would've imagined it would've been, uh, and I think a large part of that was because it was.

[00:22:54] I, when I got there, it was, it was November. Uh, so we, we had been a little bit into the pandemic and I think I missed a lot of the learning curve that came with a lot of folks working remotely for the first time. And so I, I got to join that a little bit of a better stage, uh, where I think everybody had grown pretty accustomed, uh, almost unusually accustomed to being remote.

[00:23:15] Yeah. So that part was interesting. It's always odd to not meet folks. I don't think I made it out there. So I started in November and I don't think I actually met anyone at the company in person until, uh, summer. So July.

[00:23:28] Matthew Dunn: Wow. So like the whole, you know, in terms of onboarding to the, to the job and the role, the, you know, the, the interview process, board meetings, all of that stuff, virtual, virtual,

[00:23:38] Tim Moore: virtual, Correct.

[00:23:39] Yeah. It's, it's been fully virtual. Um, and you know, we, we haven't, uh, we, we briefly got to get together a little bit over the summer. Um, but really since then, we, we haven't been able to get together and hopefully sometime soon. Yeah, please.

[00:23:51] Matthew Dunn: Yeah, that, that that's sort of month of that month of promising sunshine mid summer, it just went boom, shut down.

[00:23:58] Was it Delta? I think was the, was the shutdown factor on that was a little frustrating. I want to get out again. It's just sucks. I mean, hopefully knock on a knock on a rock, hard substance. We'll we're we're on that down slope now, but work's not going to go back into the office. Does it sound like you're planning on doing that with.

[00:24:22] Uh,

[00:24:22] Tim Moore: no, you know, we did a survey much like, uh, many other companies did. And, and I would imagine almost every company probably had very, very similar results, which is everybody appreciates flexibility. Um, and, and that's something that we want to continue to really embrace is that we do want to be a flexible company.

[00:24:38] Uh, and that also means that if there are folks that are wanting to go back into the office, we still have that ability. Um, but the majority of the company is really comfortable working remotely. Um,

[00:24:49] Matthew Dunn: yeah. Is kind of the nature of the. As well, you don't handle cardboard box. Right.

[00:24:56] Tim Moore: No abs. Absolutely. And I think, you know, some of the technologies that everybody's been able to implement have certainly been helpful, uh, in that, um, I've been thrilled with the way everybody's been able to work together.

[00:25:07] It's, it's incredible that, uh, you know, a series of all these boxes within a Microsoft teams meeting can all collaborate as well as we can. Um, and so it's been really

[00:25:17] Matthew Dunn: fun to watch about the toolset micro Microsoft centric, Microsoft teams. Um, office, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. I talked to her. Yeah, that's a actually Microsoft VAT, although way before teams, before teams was envisioned.

[00:25:33] And it's been, it's been fun watching when with slack kind of busted loose, uh, ah, this is going to kill office and like, uh, it would not count the boys in red mud out anytime soon, they'd got a mighty, mighty foothold. Um, and, and I talked to a lot of companies. That are kind of comfortable in that ecosystem.

[00:25:53] And teams keeps, seems to keep improving right there. Their Mac client kind of sucks.

[00:25:58] Tim Moore: It's, you know, it's not Mac native certainly, but, uh, it is, it is very serviceable and it's worked really well for us in a lot of ways. Um, and, and back to your comment about slack, I believe slack was also one of the parties that was supposed to kill email.

[00:26:11] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:12] Matthew Dunn: Oh yeah. Yeah. That way you're right. That was, that was the prediction. And, uh, we don't make hefty use. Of slack, maybe in part, because I personally find it astonishingly interruptive, I'm like I'm work and I'm thinking I don't want being, being, being, being, being all the time. Right. I'll get to you, you know, when I'm done with this task, you know, I don't, I, if you give permission for that constant interrupt, it can really chew the day up.

[00:26:39] And at the same time virtual company, You can't stick your head in, like all the stuff we're starting to explore. Now you can't stick your head in the, you know, in the office and say, Hey, got a minute to talk about this. So how do you conduct that? So you get flow without destroying, you know, a morning's work with, uh, with the wrong interview.

[00:26:58] It's

[00:26:59] Tim Moore: a very interesting dynamic and I've, I've been thrilled particularly on, on the product development side of the house, where there is a lot of collaboration needed. Um, those teams have been phenomenal and how they communicate and how they still get those brainstorming sessions that you would generally only get in person.

[00:27:15] They they've been very deliberate in setting ways to make sure that it's still happened. Good.

[00:27:19] Matthew Dunn: Good, good. Yeah. Cause we're gonna, we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to find the ways to re. Reinvent something that we were wired to do a different way. I mean, if you look at the literature, particularly the academic lead on collaboration and innovation, the informal stuff is integral.

[00:27:39] If not more important than the formal stuff, but we're not having beer and coffee, you know, with the people that were there that we're collaborating with. Now, we're doing things like this and figuring out how to, how to, how to allow for this. The, the, the social exchange of information that underlies a lot of, uh, a lot of innovation it's going to be, it's going to be a heck of an experiment for.

[00:28:04] Tim Moore: Absolutely. And it was one of the things that I was really concerned about, making sure that we did install it, the company, because we have these roots that exist and some of our team members have expertise. That's more deeply rooted in on-prem. Some are more deeply rooted in cloud, and I wanted this healthy level of friction to exist and I wanted some really intense.

[00:28:23] Conversations to happen. And w what I ultimately wanted is I wanted us to take the approach of, Hey, we've all been in the industry for a long time. Everyone says hindsight's 20, 20, we've got a lot of hindsight. What would we do? What would we do to build the best of both worlds? And build something today.

[00:28:41] And I was a little bit worried with the conditions. How do you make sure those conversations still happen to the degree that you want them to happen? Um, and I've, I've been absolutely thrilled with the way the team has reacted and responded to the challenge.

[00:28:53] Matthew Dunn: Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. And, and, you know, people are people are, they seem to be rising, to work in a lot of ways in the sense that did the I've worked remotely for most of 20.

[00:29:07] So I just kinda like welcome to my party, everybody. Um, and the reservations that had held so many employers back from the work from home thing. Cause the technological mechanisms have been around since, before, you know, before the big bug got loose. Right. But there was a, there honestly there was a trust thing.

[00:29:24] Well, if he works with, I'm not really sure you get as much done it, like you look and people are like, yeah, I will. In fact, guess what? I'm getting more done than I was before. So. Thanks for letting me off the hook. I could have told you that I could have told you that a decade ago or something like that.

[00:29:41] And P S adding an hour to the day, probably doesn't suck for anybody.

[00:29:46] Tim Moore: No, it's amazing. The time that everyone gets back, uh, through that, and then also just the it's so nice that everybody's able to work on their own mental schedule. Um, It's difficult to sit at a desk for eight hours and be sharp.

[00:30:01] Matthew Dunn: Yeah.

[00:30:02] Yeah. And, and, and when you're sharp is different person to person and, and, uh, you know, what refreshes you or reloads that or resets that differs person to person as well. Do you have any folks without naming names? Do you have any folks who you think would go back into a socialized work, setting an office, a shared office, a colo or something?

[00:30:25] If they had the.

[00:30:27] Tim Moore: I think there probably are some, some folks that prefer that. Um, and I don't know that they would do it necessarily. Full-time I think generally what I sense from our surveying. Yeah. It was part part-time kind of on their schedule, which, which you can't blame anyone for it. I mean, that's, that's the one thing that this is all introduced as flexibility.

[00:30:45] Matthew Dunn: I ran a, I ran a virtual company in 2005, 2006. So, you know, head office was a Southern California, but. Marketing team. I stole them from a company, a VP and designer, and the designer thought she was itching to work from home. She was in Vermont, we're in California. Right. And I'm in Washington. It took about a month and she was going out of her mind.

[00:31:12] She was stalking everybody on Skype. The minute the west coast lit up, she pounce on them with, ah, like you touch near the action. We ended up, uh, we ended up paying for a day. At a company in town, completely unrelated company so that she could work, but be around people because for her, that was just a better fit.

[00:31:33] She was going out of her mind, working at home. It's like, huh. And I'm going to bet I, my gut is there's at least a third of people for whom that's. Some interaction, some live conversation, somebody else in the room, not just them in the cat. Um, and we'll have to start figuring out how to do that. Maybe the colo spaces we'll actually have a whole new lease on life.

[00:31:56] Uh, as we come out of this,

[00:31:58] Tim Moore: it's certainly possible. And, and remote work before the pandemic was certainly a lot different. Did so for quite a while. And I, I don't recall ever being on videos as often as I am now. Yeah. We,

[00:32:10] Matthew Dunn: we made this, we made em in, Zoom's got the zoom is the, clinic's a video, right? Zoom's got the label of it, but we made this adaptation to video.

[00:32:18] I've said to people before we actually got lucky, because having worked remotely for a long time, both the tools and the comfort with the tools wasn't there, like five years ago, my guessing you would, you would be kind of trying to drag colleagues in. None of that would really help if we can see the same thing or screen-share, and then you'd burned 15 minutes setting up the stupid meeting, right?

[00:32:42] Tim Moore: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You would, you would, there was, there was a technical hurdle to overcome, but then there was also just a comfort hurdle. It was inconvenient for those that were in the office to be on video when they were all in the office. Well, and I don't

[00:32:54] Matthew Dunn: really like being on camera, hair and all that other stuff.

[00:32:57] And then when we flip it around and now we're, we're getting used to seeing each other. More personal space. I mean, you're, are you in a home office right now? I am. I love the map behind you and those of you who are listening, he's got a great world map behind him. Yeah. I mean, I'm in my home office as well.

[00:33:15] And I've talked that the agenda was talking with yesterday, from Portugal. I, I think he was in the living room or something like that. You know, the, like the setting behind him, wasn't really officey and we're all kind of like, great. Like that's very human. Yes. You have a life. Yes. You have kids or pets or whatever.

[00:33:32] This is a good thing, right? Nice to connect you with that.

[00:33:36] Tim Moore: And we get to embrace the chaos, which is, uh, has been a really fun thing. And it's been really a strong relationship building exercise too. Nice.

[00:33:44] Matthew Dunn: Nice. That was good. I was going to ask you if you had worked at, and have you seen shifts in relationships that were there were already established, but there were in the office only, and now, you know, this enough of this remoted, uh, collaboration, they start to get to know each other and gel and different.

[00:34:01] Tim Moore: Absolutely the way people work together has changed them, evolved a lot in a lot of ways.

[00:34:07] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. In a lot of ways it's improved a grade and, and we'll, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll have to figure this out. Cause I, like I said, I don't see, uh, I don't see stuffing the, uh, thing back into the bottle.

[00:34:20] It certainly for, for a lot of jobs, like the kind of jobs that people at your company are going to have, you know, if you said, must work from the office, you'd be like, oh crap, everybody left. Why? Because they could get a gig somewhere else.

[00:34:33] Tim Moore: You know, I, I know a lot of companies get very eager when they see a large company, require everybody to go back to the office because they know that that is a recruiting avenue for them now.

[00:34:43] Yes, absolutely.

[00:34:44] Matthew Dunn: Yeah, absolutely. And large companies that I know, some of them are on the fence. Apple's fence sitting. Google's fence sitting. I don't know, quite know about Amazon, but I like my sense for some of the, like some of the marquee companies that are easy to name is they're like, oh gee, we're not sure if this is going to work.

[00:35:02] And I'm thinking, whew, you're going to have some very hard decisions to make.

[00:35:08] Tim Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. I don't envy those folks, making those decisions because being a small agile company, it certainly is a lot easier to respond and adapt to the

[00:35:18] Matthew Dunn: yeah. Yeah. And, and I, instead of function a scale, like why would a big company have a different problem with that adaptation?

[00:35:26] I mean, leaving aside jobs that require physically being in a place to do something, um, you know, a, a purely digital org, uh, Google, for example, I think they'd have to figure out they're going to have to work this

[00:35:39] Tim Moore: way. It's a large ship to, to reverse course on

[00:35:43] Matthew Dunn: it is it is. Microsoft seems to be already on, on board.

[00:35:47] I can't pinpoint the exact quote, but my sense is that they've already in the, this is the way that people are going to work. We'll do.

[00:35:56] Tim Moore: Yeah, I think Redmond, you know, I think it's an intelligent way to respond to it. I think that the thing that this has forced us all to do is something that we should have all been doing a lot sooner, but that's really learning how people want to work.

[00:36:10] Everybody wants to work a little bit more differently, and I think we're starting to embrace those nuances and those differences within people now and

[00:36:16] Matthew Dunn: find the. As well, uh, you know, less, less commute time or work. W you know, if you're sharp in the morning, do X in the morning kind of thing I would like to see.

[00:36:27] And I mean, now we're going way too far, a field from email, but I would like to see a less jury rigged approach to the tools for remote collaboration. I mean, I'm sitting here, I'm sitting on a Mac, you're sitting probably on a windows box. Um, you're probably looking at a, a monitor that was originally designed for, you know, documents, spreadsheets, code, whatever.

[00:36:53] Right. Um, is it big enough, really for us to have a face-to-face conversation you're looking slightly down because of the bright, because of the configuration of, is it a Nope. Nope.

[00:37:06] Tim Moore: Well, no, I'm I'm Mac book pro

[00:37:07] Matthew Dunn: pro. Okay, cool. Cool. Like, and, uh, I'm, I'm a geek on this stuff. And as I said, I've worked remotely for a long time.

[00:37:13] So I finally ended up with second monitor above the primary monitor and camera on a stand that goes up. So I can, I can actually see you and look into the camera, but we're jury rigging this stuff, you know, I'm getting parts off of Amazon and, you know, well, what if the camera's here will that work and over the mic there that worked and real estate.

[00:37:34] I'd like a screen about 60 inches wide. So if I were talking to you, you're pretty darn close to life size, and maybe we'll, maybe we'll start to see less of the, my PC can do this as well on collaboration and more of a, how do we really make shared space so that we can be together. And it's digital.

[00:37:55] Tim Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. I do think that that's going to be the next evolution of this. Um, and I know our product development team, one of the things that they do look into is, is kind of these virtual white boarding type of tools,

[00:38:06] Matthew Dunn: Mira and so on. Yeah, they're cool. Aren't they it's really cool.

[00:38:10] Tim Moore: I mean, I just imagine this just even a few years ago, I don't think any.

[00:38:15] Could have imagined where this would all go, not pandemic, just, but I mean, some of the technical nuances. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:23] Matthew Dunn: And, and, you know, th the, the room for the scribble, the hand, the visual, you know, there's a whiteboard behind me if you're listening to this. And like, I don't think so well without a white board kind of a thing, but to be able to share it, see it, modify it, mark it up on that matters in collecting.

[00:38:42] Yeah, no, absolutely. I was, uh, there was a, there was a platform. Do you know the name? Ray Ozzie?

[00:38:50] Tim Moore: I don't know.

[00:38:51] Matthew Dunn: Ray Ozzie was the architect, a guy behind Lotus notes, and then he eventually became CTO of Microsoft for a while. It just was like brilliant. World-class developer way up here. He spent a couple of years working on a platform.

[00:39:07] Gosh, I think it was called groove and it was a peer to peer. Uh, work and collaboration platform, Microsoft eventually when they bought groove, I think to get Ray Ozzie there, but I was on a session once where a handful of us were using group. We didn't work at same company and there was a, there was a tool for doing mind mapping and groove.

[00:39:29] And we started down a rabbit hole talking about something, but we were, everyone was mind mapping on the fly to keep track of the conversation. And it was fast. One guy went off in this direction, building the tree. Another guy went off in this direction, building the tree, and we're all looking at this thing, going, growing in these different directions at once.

[00:39:50] Like that is flipping fascinating. It's like no one had control of the marker. Everyone had to. And their contribution was, it was much more like jazz, you know, it was much more like, oh, you're doing that. Let me jump over there and connect that to this. Like, and I've never seen, I've never seen a tool that does that much.

[00:40:10] Real-time free flow since, but I hope someone will listen and goes, oh, good idea. Let's go build that. Cause it was, it was unbelievable to see live that someone's thinking in a different direction, but they didn't have the constraint of, you know, Matthew's got the most. That we're used to

[00:40:29] Tim Moore: it. Absolutely.

[00:40:30] Well, and, and I mean to, to bring us into the email world on that comparison, which I love is it's really starting to work in concert with all the other tools that exist out there doing it, the exact same way you described where one thing ends and another picks up, there's a seamless transition.

[00:40:48] Matthew Dunn: Where do you think, where do you think.

[00:40:50] Fits like narrowed down from email marketing for a second in the world of work where email was such a primary tool of communication and record and even collaboration and not necessarily good at all those jobs equally. Where's it going to fit? As we keep evolving the world of work it's.

[00:41:12] Tim Moore: It has a lot of staying power.

[00:41:14] I do believe that because I think every, every time people have written off email and says that it's dying, whether commercially or in business life, it's never, it's never taken a hit. It continues to grow. So I, I don't see that changing. I really don't. I think even, even though we use teams for a lot of our interoffice communications, we still use email for the key things.

[00:41:38] We still use email to communicate with customers and prospects. Yes. Um, those use cases, I don't see subsiding at any point, not in the near term anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[00:41:49] Matthew Dunn: no, I, I, I tend to agree. And especially when you leave the company, Yeah, right. Like, like what, it's the only free range I can reach out to you.

[00:41:59] You can reach out to me. We don't have to integrate, set up permissions. Any of that crap. It's just like, I'll send you an email. Oh, look good. I do,

[00:42:08] Tim Moore: you know, it's, it's, de-centralized nature makes it so interesting. Nobody owns the email channel and I think that's, what's so fantastic about it. And when you look at all these omni-channel providers, I don't think that's something they fully understand or have embraced.

[00:42:21] Yeah,

[00:42:22] Matthew Dunn: I agree. I have some reservations about the role that the really dominant inbox providers are starting to play. I like, I'm not entirely nuts. About 1.6 billion, you know, Gmail inboxes. I'm not entirely nuts about deliverability being, Ooh, geez. I got in the promotions tablet. I'm sorry, but who put them in charge of the.

[00:42:48] Tim Moore: What do you think it's an interesting dynamic? Um, I think there's a lot of give and take to it. And I think if we can align on all of us agreeing that the end user is who we are all trying to delight, I think that helps make those conversations a lot easier. I think it starts us off. Um, you know, I, I certainly know a few of the mailbox providers they're keen to work with marketers.

[00:43:09] Um, you know, there, there is an understanding that we do have a shared interest here. We want email to be a really pleasant experience for. Yeah, because if it's, if it's a terrible experience for the end user, that's the only thing that can really kill email.

[00:43:23] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. What do you, what's your perspective on, on, on apples, you know, shift in handling the signal back MPP.

[00:43:34] Opens in privacy.

[00:43:36] Tim Moore: It's interesting. It certainly puts a greater reliance on other data sources. I think it opens were always a really interesting signal, both from the marketer and deliverability practitioner perspective. Uh, so to have that signal nullified a little bit, um, and I wouldn't say that it's rendered useless because I do still think it's a strong, directional signal.

[00:43:56] Um, but to have that change take place, we all had to adapt. Um, and it's, it's something that was probably long overdue. Um, we, we have a, a scoring product. So we, we looked at mail streams and we score them relative to other mail streams. And I believe there's 36 data inputs that go into it. So opens was one of them.

[00:44:15] Okay. Um, and does it remain one of them? It does. It just has changed how it's used. So we look at it more as a directional indicator versus kind of a forensic actionable indicator. Um, so it's, it's cost us all as an email community to think about things a little bit differently. Um, but I think some of that's overdue, I do think that some of us were probably a little bit too reliant on engagement data.

[00:44:40] Um, I think this has forced us to think a little bit more outside the box and go a little bit deeper into the funnel when we're looking at conversion data for end users.

[00:44:51] Matthew Dunn: Uh, w w well, well, put, it really has been. Um, kind of a boof wake up, wake up, lots of conversations, lots of re-evaluation. Um, you know, where, where I have two perspectives on the NPP thing one, and I said, this tartly a few times.

[00:45:08] If email marketers had made more interesting use of the content capability in email, it wouldn't have necessarily been such an easy move. If, if. Pixels were replaced with content that consumer could see that was of use to them. Apple might have considered whether or not that was the best thing to do, but you know, 98% of email.

[00:45:32] No, no, no. Real-time content, nothing particularly interesting visually. And the pixels really there for the market or not the consumer, not the.

[00:45:42] Tim Moore: Yeah, I, I think there's certainly some truth to that. And I, one of the things that we've really seen throughout the past decade within email is a lot of the things that everyone wants to do there just isn't a technical capability to do it.

[00:45:53] Um, yeah. And I love tackling that problem from the email delivery perspective is it's just talking about, if, if you could envision a world where your email infrastructure could work for you in the most flexible way possible and is capable of fulfilling anything you could potentially think. Would you want to do that?

[00:46:10] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Okay. Wow. I love, I love, I, I, I, it's very clear that this is your space. It's like, it's almost every word. It's like, God, this guy gets this space and knows. It sounds like you've got a whole team lined up behind that, which is awesome. Where do you, uh, where do you see SocketLabs in say a year or two?

[00:46:28] Like, what do you think might be different?

[00:46:31] Tim Moore: Well, it's going to be interesting because there are a lot of external variables that are happening within the industry that are influencing a lot of things. Uh, and, and one of the things that we've really seen is, uh, we're one of the few email companies left in the email infrastructure space.

[00:46:45] I think we might be the only, um, or at least the largest independent email sending company out there. Um, because you, you look at the competitive landscape and how it's changed. It started with SparkPost and SparkPost gets acquired by message bird and SMS company. And then you have a, well, I guess even before that you had SendGrid get acquired by Twilio and SMS company.

[00:47:05] And then. Uh, and the SMS company. Um, and so there's an interesting omni-channel space. And so the, the thing that I really keep my eye on and what I'm really curious to see how it'll all play out is what is going to happen with these omni-channel infrastructure providers. Um, so you've got your Omni channel infrastructure providers and Twilio and synch and messaging.

[00:47:31] You know, th the first thing that I notice is okay, they aren't email companies anymore. So it, it, it seems unlikely that they're going to invest heavily in the email. Uh, I certainly don't think email innovation, innovation of making the pipe more intelligent is probably on their radar. Um, and I don't blame them.

[00:47:48] They're gigantic companies with huge, uh, revenue targets to, to adhere to. Are they going to start to go back in the MarTech stacks or are they going to take their focus where they're kind of in this email channel delivery and omni-channel delivery space? Are they going to start to get into automation and then into CDP type of territory?

[00:48:09] And I think if you. The signals that are happening right now, it's, it's kind of already starting, um, you know, with Twilio they've acquired segments. So they have a CDP. Yes. They've released Twilio engage, which is effectively a marketing automation platform. So I think what you're seeing is you're seeing the omni-channel providers really start to compete with the giant marketing clouds and kind of the gen two marketing clouds that exist out there.

[00:48:35] Um, it's a land grab. But they're all participating in. So it's, it's going to present some really interesting conversations because they're competing with their customers in a lot of these cases.

[00:48:46] Matthew Dunn: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That makes, that actually makes a ton of sense. And sand, sand grit is the one that I've worked enough with Twilio pre and post sand grid to have, have something to map what you just said on.

[00:49:00] Yeah. That makes a, it makes a ton of sense. Puts you guys in an interesting strategic position because in. You're not trying to go up the stack. You're trying to go down and deeper at the base of that. You

[00:49:12] Tim Moore: know, what we're trying to do is that the stack has stopped here. We're trying to see if it can go out here, you know, we're, we're starting to think about, okay, well, email delivery has always been, I mean, eventually what happened with it as it kind of got commoditized and everybody just agreed that, Hey, what do you want out of your piping?

[00:49:28] Well, you want it to be cheap and you want it to scale and you want it to be reliable. W w will do you want it to perform in ways that you didn't expect. Would it be possible to perform it because that's really where I think the magic starts to happen is when you start to go farther right. In that stack and you start to look at, okay, well, what are the opportunities to send email better and smarter?

[00:49:47] Yeah.

[00:49:48] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Interesting. I see a, I see a bit of an analogy to the real-time content niche that campaign genius plays in, in that the big company, big guest company in that space, um, movable. Is, you know, like I read their homepage almost every day. I'm not dumb. Right. And it starting to be less about email and more about all sorts of content, text, et cetera, et cetera, like totally makes sense as a move, but it means that they're less focused on dedicated to exploring what's what's this channel all about.

[00:50:25] And there seems to be some sizzle on SMS MMS right now. Um, I'm not sure there's a stake there in the long run. Um, cause if I got a lot of marketing messages on my phone, I, my head would pop off. Like don't, don't do that to me please. What do you think

[00:50:45] Tim Moore: it's interesting because SMS is such a difficult concept to understand as is somebody who's rooted in email.

[00:50:50] Um, it's just, it, it's such an interesting and so much more intrusive and the margin of error is so much less. Um, but, you know, from the omni-channel perspective, it's, it's unitary economics are very favorable. It costs a lot more to send an SMS than it does to send an email. Uh, and so I do think that that's why it's the SMS companies that have been buying the email companies to this point, but there's certainly some economics that work out in their favor, but I agree.

[00:51:17] I don't think we know the long-term sustainability of that. Yeah.

[00:51:21] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. We don't know what the folks in control of the end platform might decide to do with that. Right? If, if, if apple decided to change something about the handling of messages that land in their SMS client, their MMS client, but nobody's going to get to say boo about it, like, oh, you decided to do that.

[00:51:48] I guess we're going to have to go along. We don't have. Yeah,

[00:51:52] Tim Moore: absolutely. And MMS SMS, you're dealing with such a more strongly regulated channel, um, where, where email was decentralized, where we're talking about something that is quite the opposite. Um, so it's, it's a very interesting channel and I do think that a lot of what the marketing automation providers are doing, particularly kind of the gen two marketing clouds, what I call them as your intervals and braises and Klaviyo's and.

[00:52:17] Uh, and blue cores of the world, they're getting so good with this cross-channel orchestration. And it's so interesting to see, um, just to see, you know, how, how you can try to choose right channel at the right time with the right message. Um, there are a lot of advancements that have been made, so it's certainly an exciting space.

[00:52:37] Um, but you know, from our perspective, the thing that still gets left behind is what do you do to make the email channel more effective?

[00:52:44] Matthew Dunn: Well, when, uh, uh, w uh, Head of one of the bigger email marketing agencies out there, common or not a call a month or two ago. He said, if you want your, if you want to grow the email channel, let them try some SMS campaigns.

[00:52:59] Cause they'll come running back. Once they see the bill, um, at vault at scale, that's an expensive hobby guys. I know, I know you get 99% opens or something like that, but mama Mia, you're paying for that attention in a very concrete.

[00:53:16] Tim Moore: Absolutely. And it's, it's why email is still really the horsepower of the marketers tech stack.

[00:53:22] Um, I mean, when you look at all the channels, the ROI on emails is still tops. Um,

[00:53:27] Matthew Dunn: yeah. Yeah. Hands down. I also, I also think more, I think messaging is never going to unfragmented either. I mean, it's easy to talk SMS MN. But there's, there's at least two, uh, points that behave differently there. And WhatsApp, we chat.

[00:53:43] Like you can start going down the list of other messaging channels and if there is not a standard, whereas when we're talking about email, there is.

[00:53:54] Tim Moore: Oh, absolutely. There, there is, there is a standard, um, you know, the, the way people send email has been relatively unchanged for a while now. Um, yeah. Yeah. And so I think it's, it's just interesting to see a channel that's been around as long as email has in generates the ROI that it generates, which is.

[00:54:13] hi. Um, yet I would still probably call it a channel that hasn't been fully optimized. I do still think there's a lot of room for optimization within email and, uh, I certainly understand the movement towards omni-channel and I certainly understand what the market conditions are permitting there, but boy, there's still a lot left to do an email.

[00:54:33] Yeah,

[00:54:33] Matthew Dunn: yeah. Yeah. Well, that's it. That's a good one. Concluding sentence right there. Nicely, nicely wrapped up. Uh, if someone is intrigued by what you're saying, which I'm sure they will be best place for them to hunt down SocketLabs, is it SocketLabs.com? It is indeed. Yes. Well, that's a that's. Cool. Well, thank you Tim, for making the time it's been a, I knew it would be a great conversation.

[00:54:56] I knew we'd go down some rabbit holes, but, uh, it was. No, I

[00:55:01] Tim Moore: appreciate it. Likewise, thank you for having me. We'll wrap

[00:55:03] Matthew Dunn: it up. My guest has been Tim Moore, CEO of SocketLabs. Thanks. We're out.

[00:55:08]