A Conversation With Lauren Meyer of SocketLabs

Part of the business of technology — like any business — is talking the talk. Complexity and constant change spin off acronyms and terms quickly and endlessly.

The sales person rattling off the terms may...or may not...really understand what they're saying. Sometimes they're just reading the marketing blurbs in their head.

Other times, the marketing person themselves — in this case, CMO Lauren Meyer of independent mail delivery platform SocketLabs — talks the talk and has walked the walk. Lauren joined host Matthew Dunn to talk about 'deliverability and beyond', tracing her career arc through the dense, difficult and detailed world of email deliverability through to her current job, helping SocketLabs for and with its customers.

Lauren is a delightful interview subject, with a wry knack for tech insider jokes and an infectious laugh. She downplays the rarity of that career arc; hands-on deliverability and C-level marketing are VERY different jobs. Lauren makes it sound natural.

This is a particularly engaging conversation for people facing professional development challenges in their workplace. Hearing from someone who lived through great and awful bosses, worked her way up through the uncharted career ladder of deliverability and email to become a visible and respected figure in the field — while apparently having a lot of fun along on the way — is an inspiration.

Don't miss this one.

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00]

[00:00:09] Matthew Dunn: Good afternoon. This is Dr. Matthew Dunn host of the future of email marketing. And my guest today is one of the future of email marketing people. Key people, Lauren Meyer, chief marketing officer now, correct. It's SocketLabs, correct.

[00:00:25] Lauren Meyer: Hey Lauren. Welcome. Thanks for having me. It's really

[00:00:28] Matthew Dunn: great to be here.

[00:00:29] Yay. We connect at last and you're headed to a summit to talk about things deliverability and beyond. Okay, this is deliverability and beyond right next week.

[00:00:41] Lauren Meyer: Nailed the sentiment on that one. Pretty much perfectly. Yeah. So I think that's, um, the, the, the, the deliverability something that's happening right now live virtual event virtual event is, uh, is a Tuesday, April 5th.

[00:00:53] Matthew Dunn: Think of the virtual event shifts. Cause I'm going to guess your. Two and a half, three years ago involved more than a few airplanes in conferences and live interactions with people that you probably had worked with a bunch you and your amazing track record in email. Do you miss it?

[00:01:10] Lauren Meyer: I do. And I don't, um, I loved the travel that I did.

[00:01:13] Uh, the industry is awesome. And to your point, yeah, there's, there's people that I got to see multiple times throughout the year in really awesome venues and places of the world. So that was great. I was working for a French based ESP, so I've been to Paris literally more times than I can. So like, it's, it's just kind of awesome to have that experience as you're working and kind of getting to understand this world of email a little bit better and kind of navigate your way through it.

[00:01:35] So I think that was really awesome, really exciting. I learned a ton. Um, I grew so much confidence simply by the fact that I was a woman traveling alone. I mean, I've been to several times. I've been to all kinds of places all around Europe and. Everywhere. Yeah. All kinds of places. Yeah. So that was really, really awesome.

[00:01:51] But now I've got kids that are about three and a half years old. I've had a set of twins, a boy and girl. Um, so it's really wonderful to be around and to help my wife with those .

[00:02:03] Matthew Dunn: Oh my goodness. Yes. And what three and a half and read the

[00:02:08] Lauren Meyer: three and a half. Yeah. So it's a boy and a girl. Um, yeah. And it's just, it's um, it's wonderful.

[00:02:14] And, and it's, it's cool because it's like the day-to-day magic that I would miss when I was on the road for a week or two in the past. I just, I could never get those moments back. So I think it was perfect timing for me specifically to just sort of like slow down. Um, I joined, Kickbox kind of like right as the pandemic was starting, like.

[00:02:29] I think, you know, I, I went to , um, that, that, that fateful San Francisco mall, right before everything changed. What was that? February of 2020? I was with Kickbox for about a year. And then I've been working for SocketLabs now for a year as well. And, um, I haven't traveled for either of them. I haven't met either of my colleagues in, well, I did meet Kickbox.

[00:02:48] Um, once I went to, to Dallas one time for one week with the team and then never saw them again at first.

[00:02:56] Matthew Dunn: Put a put we have to do to market. One is the commercial marker moment of silence for everyone who is sympathetic, that my God, you had traveled Paris. Okay. That was short. Um, deliverability summit that you're attending virtually.

[00:03:10] I remember distinctly that the summit, that, that same company was putting on. Had to pivot on a week's notice or something like that. And Andrew and Nellie had to pivot on a week's notice to go virtual because of the pandemic. Yeah. And I think

[00:03:26] Lauren Meyer: what's cool is I believe they were already planning for it to be a hybrid event anyway.

[00:03:31] So it's great that they had all that technology already in place and they kind of could just really lean heavily into it because. Yeah. Yeah. I know a lot of people that were planning to attend and could have had to cancel their trips last minute, because it was like the whole we'll we won't be, and we feel like we should go, but then we also feel like we shouldn't get all go.

[00:03:46] Like, you know, it's, it's such a yeah. Such a strange time.

[00:03:50] Matthew Dunn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. And it's, it's fun to be talking about, you know, sort of coming off, coming off of the thing, but we're only now starting to wrestle. What adjustments and changes will we keep, you know, what, what, what things will we not go back to?

[00:04:05] Cause it's a pretty darn long list of those things and a lot more positives, not always easy to appreciate the moment, but your example of, of, of being able to spend more time with the kids. He's like, yay. Good. Wonderful. I don't see a loss there. I see a good there. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:04:23] Lauren Meyer: Yeah. And I mean, it's great when you've got overlapping events and in the past, you would've had to say, oh, I'm sorry.

[00:04:27] And kind of pick and choose. Whereas now you could do them to put hypothetically like back to back, um, you could do them in your sweatpants if you want to, whatever, you know, whatever works for you. It's, it's a cool time in that sense of just kind of accessibility. A greater number of people throughout the industry that didn't get to travel before.

[00:04:44] You know, I was fortunate enough to do it, but a lot of others in my company and in companies that I knew of were really scraping to try to get that one seat for their company or, you know, the two seats or whatever it was to actually go to a conference so

[00:04:56] Matthew Dunn: well. And when you're, when you're particularly, if you're a vendor side, which is fair to describe SocketLabs, campaign genius, bill vendor site, It's a, it's a genuine budget consideration, especially when you're just getting rolling, go to events.

[00:05:11] And then there's always someone going, oh, sponsor was like, send us a large amount of money for it. I don't think it's really

[00:05:18] Lauren Meyer: disheartening when you're like, that's, that's literally my entire year budget that you're asking for. You don't realize that it is and it's yeah. I think that's what it is. Right.

[00:05:27] Matthew Dunn: And it's tough to know with that, with the kind of experience you've got your fear a lot better. What's going to work because you don't know, like, and sometimes one random, pardon me, random ass conversation, like makes the whole thing worthwhile, but you can't guarantee they're going to happen either. It does.

[00:05:45] Lauren Meyer: And I think that's, that's one of those words is almost just that, like, you've gotta follow your intuition. You gotta learn from what worked or didn't work in the past, but then it's also kind of just, you know, sort of showing up and being there and whatever way you can and, and just sort of when you can't be so be supportive of that event and the people that are going and stuff.

[00:05:59] And I don't know. Doing your best and keep

[00:06:04] Matthew Dunn: learning. And you successfully migrated from both duty to the public stage. If I'm not mistaken.

[00:06:11] Lauren Meyer: I did. Yes. I was living a very, very deep in the trenches for quite a long time, I guess you could say. So. Um, yeah, and then I think it was just one of those, I, you know, MailChimp was a really great turning point in my life.

[00:06:21] Um, and you know, just that the travel was wonderful, but the people, um, and just having that opportunity to sort of get exposure to our leadership team eventually, like, you know, a couple months in, they kind of actually added me to the leadership team. So I got to go and be in those meetings as well, and just like really kind of helped shape the company.

[00:06:37] Um, but then get opportunities to do some guest blogging and to go to events. Maybe not be the person that was on stage, but like have conversations after the fact in the hallways or, um, you know, just kind of learn from those people or ask follow up questions and it's sort of like a safe space. Cause it's just the two of you sitting there at lunch awkwardly, wondering what to talk about.

[00:06:53] Right. So, um, yeah, so I think it was. It was just really, really kind of fun to sort of move my way up and just to get, just keep learning. Right? It's like one pebble here. One, one passion there, one person you need over here that just has a need for something. And you've got a, um, an ability to fill that need or to help them out.

[00:07:10] And you just kind of see where things go. Right?

[00:07:12] Matthew Dunn: So young Lauren kicking around the. The leafy campus of Robert Morris have expected to be where you are now? I

[00:07:21] Lauren Meyer: don't think so. No. So I am born and raised in Pennsylvania. So I'm, I'm from like Hershey, Pennsylvania, east coast, Pennsylvania, um, central, I guess you could say.

[00:07:31] Um, and then went to college in Pittsburgh, right? So it's like, I was there, um, just kind of stayed local. I played soccer. So we were a division one soccer team. I played soccer. So yeah, we had that experience and I got to travel, but it was like, you know, Had a couple of games where we were, we spent a weekend in New York city in between, and it was like just the overwhelm of the subway.

[00:07:51] And we were walking everywhere and it was just like so much. And I just remember being like, this is cool, but like, wow, this is like a one-time experience I'll never have again. And then all of a sudden, a couple of years later it was like, well, um, I'm kind of bored living where I live. So like, let's go somewhere.

[00:08:05] And then of course I had a cousin who lived in New York city. So that was awesome enough for me to be able to have to kind of crash on her couch for three months while I figured out my life. And. Uh, yeah, so I actually ended up spending like 15 years in New York city, even though I thought it would be, you know, three and then move on.

[00:08:20] Yeah. So 15 years a good solid chunk of my life. And then, um, when the kids kind of got a little older and my wife was sort of itching to move back closer to her family, we were like, let's go. And, um, we moved like the end of January, 2019. So it was like, you know, the male male jet had just been acquired.

[00:08:36] By mail done. And so kind of my professional life was changing and my wife was like, well, let's get outta here. It's time to go. Like, we've been waiting for your work to kind of figure this out. So we did. And then, you know, six weeks later, um, things changed. So it was really nice to have so much more space.

[00:08:52] I mean, like literally quadruple the space for less cost, even though California is quite expensive still. But,

[00:09:00] Matthew Dunn: but yes, I do wonder is a sidebar. I do wonder and take my hat off to the folks that survived the lock-in part of the pandemic in tenia. Yeah. Apartment spaces in cities. Cause I got a little room to kick around and I wouldn't have met otherwise.

[00:09:18] Lauren Meyer: Yeah, it's intense. Yeah. I have friends who still live there and it was like, you know, some of them were walking from the upper west side to lower west side to go to work. So like two to three hours of walking each way, trying to avoid the subway. Like I got other people that were working in digital, you know, digital, um, industry.

[00:09:34] So they were kinda like, yeah, I pretty much just worked from home now. I don't really go to the bars anymore, but it's like, how can you. Bumping into people walking out your front door. So it's just, um, yeah, it's, it's a lot. I had some other friends who moved out of the city

[00:09:46] as

[00:09:46] Matthew Dunn: well, because yeah, I was going to ask you, I, my sense Mina, I'm across the country from, uh, from the city from Manhattan as well.

[00:09:54] But my sense is it's a very different place right now.

[00:09:57] Lauren Meyer: It absolutely is. And that's, that's the thing. I think it's, you know, it's kind of had these waves where it's coming back, so there still are wonderful things to enjoy, but it's one of those it's just, you know, for me, it was going to concerts being surrounded by a ton of people going to bars, going to restaurants, everything was just surrounding.

[00:10:14] My friends all while a lot of them kind of ended up moving away because they're like, it's just for paying for paying for all of that, but we don't even want to do that. If it's available, it's just sort of, kind of, it's a completely different experience.

[00:10:24] Matthew Dunn: So yeah, I, I talked with one, uh, one Jen, who's a longtime journalist in the email space and near the beginning of this and he, he was telling me that he would he's he sold outside of Manhattan.

[00:10:36] And, and like use the rounding error to buy a place in West Virginia. It was just like ridiculous. And I said, I'm going to give you the phrase it's called geo arbitrage. Welcome to geo arbitrage because it does work. But yeah, we're, we're, we're reinventing a bunch of stuff. And your CEO, Tim Moore, who had the opportunity to interview a month back, you got to onboard him for chili, right?

[00:10:59] Lauren Meyer: Well, he onboarded me officially. So he started in December or November of, of. 2020. I want to say. And then I started in March of 2021. Yeah. But that was just a very fun conversation where it was kind of just like, Hey, I've been seeing what you're doing on LinkedIn. Things are going really well, like really awesome.

[00:11:17] And, um, and then it was kind of like a, well, you know, if, you know, and I was like, oh, that'd be so fun to keep doing more marketing and blah, blah, blah. And he was like, well, now that you mentioned it, do you have time for a conversation? And then it was kinda like, I might be a CEO of somewhere soon. If so, would you want to come work for me?

[00:11:30] And I was like, yes, that'd be wonderful. Yes. So, um, yeah, so it's a pretty awesome opportunity. I think he's really trying to, and we've, we're succeeding at it because it's just every, every month I feel like we're adding someone new in that sense, but it's. We're just trying to grow people that are hardcore live and die, email delivery infrastructure and deliverability people.

[00:11:49] And so it's like one of those, like for me, I am about the farthest you can get from a CMO. It, you know, it's like, I'm the person who used to say no to all the sales contracts when they didn't smell like a rose, right? Like I'm the person, you know, I, I was the compliance person. So it's, um, you know, obviously I'm never gonna be the person that purchases list I'm not as strong in, in outbound is probably some of my get my counterparts are, but I think that's where.

[00:12:09] It's this idea that like, we're, we're all just, we want to do right by email. Right. So we want to give everybody like this awesome email experience, but also like that mob mentality of like the anti abuse side of it, of not just saying yes to every customer of kind of really walking that fine line of like doing right by mailbox providers as well as the recipients.

[00:12:28] Right. So I think that's, um, you know, we're just, we're growing all these people where it's, you know, Tim is, is an email nerd. Uh, we've got Brandon as our CRO. He's an email nerd and we've got my , he's a CPO, he's an email nerd. We've got Louis. We've got Brian, we've got Skyler is our head of people operations at this point, as well as doing product management.

[00:12:44] So it's like, we just got these people who have this, like just deep love and passion for email, but like, but they're just doing kind of other, other things. Like they're moving on to kind of other fields that have always interests them. Um, and that they have. Strong skill sets for, but just, it's never been there.

[00:13:01] Like we've all kind of just lived in the trenches for a lot of our lives.

[00:13:03] Matthew Dunn: Well, you, you lived, you can kind of burying the lead there. You, uh, you, you, you came through a very detailed data-driven technical path and now you're wearing a marketing hat and I would argue that's a relatively unusual.

[00:13:18] Lauren Meyer: Yes. I, I would a hundred percent agree.

[00:13:20] I do not think that I am the right CMO for a lot of businesses probably. Um, but I think that's where we live with an email. Right. So it's more, um, you, you need to understand your audience. I think you need to understand what your mission is. And our mission is not just to make a bunch of money and help people send a ton of email.

[00:13:36] I mean, yes, of course that's part of it, but it really is more just again doing right by email. So it's like, we're trying to build something. So Tim's pitched to me, wasn't just, Hey, come be the CML because it's. Frankly, intimidating as hell. Like I'm not, you know, I'm not as qualified as I, as I would like to be for that role compared to other roles I've had in my past.

[00:13:53] Um, but part of the pitch was like, we're building something that we wish we had back in the day. We're building something that like, we wanted to give it's. If we want to make this easier for people, we want people to do email the right way. That's just really kind of resonated with me. And so it was one of those, like, I just, it was like almost, it just became harder and harder to say no, as we continued talking and I was just like, well, I think I'm doing this.

[00:14:14] And my wife was like, are you sure you can handle the stress of that? That's like a big upgrade. Right? Like, you know, and I was just like, I think, yes, but I want to try because it's really, it's so exciting. And it's just like, you can feel the passion in all of us. Like when we get together, we've got these strategy sessions and sometimes they go down a rabbit hole that they should never ever go down.

[00:14:32] And we kind of have to like back it up and be like, guys, like, what do people actually need in the market? Not just, what do we want to build because we're nerds. But like, it's, it's really cool because you can feel the energy and you can feel the push and pull of well, but this is my experience and my experience tells me not to do this.

[00:14:46] And then someone says, but my experience tells me that we can, if we do it differently. And so it's just really cool. Cause it sounds like. Terrific, like iterating on top of each other and you know, and there's a respect because we've all been there. We've all done this stuff, but there's also just this like, okay.

[00:15:01] But like, I wouldn't be the smartest person. I want us to go with my idea, not your idea. So there's, there's kind of like this like fun competition as well. And we all just, yeah, we're just kind of supremely nerding out at work.

[00:15:11] Matthew Dunn: There's some human nature to that. But, uh, having worked at large software organizations in my.

[00:15:19] Were fairly or unfairly. You didn't always expect the marketing people that really know how the heck that thing work green. It's gotta be enormously refreshing for your colleagues to go. Oh, actually that was the stuff inside. Yeah.

[00:15:35] Lauren Meyer: Yes. I will say you would be surprised how often even I stumble upon something that's incorrect and they're like, don't you mean this Lauren?

[00:15:43] Yeah, totally. That's what I mean. I, yeah, I know this stuff just as well as you do now still. Yeah. I feel like I'm losing my deliverability chops

[00:15:49] Matthew Dunn: lately. I was getting, man. Hey, well, no, it's too complex. Right? I didn't even know that I didn't need, I still can't get the word out deliverability, but it's not a word you run into a lot if you're not in the email space and then starting to get a glimpse.

[00:16:02] Fricking technical and complex, the actual, uh, uh, flying of billions of emails around the globe every day is

[00:16:12] Lauren Meyer: yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that's, it? It is interesting. Cause I've worked at a couple of really big companies as well. You know, Epsilon was one of them that at the time was owned by Alliance data and it was like, their whole pitch was like, we're the biggest company you've never heard of, you know?

[00:16:25] And I'm like, oh, that's cool. But like I've never heard of you. Right. So, yeah. Okay. So, um, but, but yeah, they had a ton of really awesome. Clients. And my role was just so specific and I learned a ton because I had a really awesome manager, John Stephenson who still works there now, I think he left for a while.

[00:16:41] He came back, but he just really like just, it was, he called me from the west coast. I was on the east coast and would just be like, so today let's talk about SPS and he would just give me this. Really deep history that I had not gotten in my previous experiences, even though I was pretty deep into email at that point.

[00:16:55] So it was just like this really awesome foundation. So it's like, I have a special manager who, who really kind of pulled me along and taught me some stuff. But sometimes in those big companies, you sort of. Like lost. And you're just, you're this one little puzzle piece and you want to do so much more, but like, ultimately your job is to pass it off to the next person.

[00:17:12] And then they kind of, it's like this layering effect. And so like, I feel like that's where, you know, like these smaller companies then it's like, yeah, there's this fine line. Because like now, you know, we've, we've got only 36 people at SocketLabs. I think male jet, when I started, we were around 150 and grew to maybe two 50 or 300 by the end of.

[00:17:28] Just before we got acquired by a Mailgun. And it's just like the, the, the difference in the amount of allies you have, who understand what you're doing versus if you're like, well, I'm the deliverability person and you're like, oh, so what do you know about deliverability? And they're like, nothing, I'm the closest to email.

[00:17:43] I don't even know that email. Right. And it's just this they're, they're the closest to technology within their organization in some places. Um, and so, yeah, like regardless of what company you're working for, Sometimes you really just, yeah. You of do better work hard to, to find answers and stuff. So I think that's, I don't know.

[00:17:58] I feel like our email, our industry is very special in that sense because everyone shares, right? Like you have all these

[00:18:04] Matthew Dunn: industry being special. Do you, by chance know a Samantha EOD Che?

[00:18:08] Lauren Meyer: Um, I know of her. I can't say I've ever actually had the,

[00:18:12] Matthew Dunn: I had the opportunity to have her on as a podcast guest is she works in the email space as well, but she had this great story about a man.

[00:18:20] We're really in her career. I think she said she was essentially an administrative assistant or something in the manner. You got, you got a lot of mojo, let me help you and really launched her career. It sounds like you had one of those and election did that can make is, is lifelong. It's so huge.

[00:18:37] Lauren Meyer: And that's, you know, I got to go to a couple of moms while I was set up selling as well, but like that's where, you know, John was teaching me things and he was.

[00:18:43] Yeah, introducing me to people. And that's where, you know, he had, I think, um, like Kirsty has parasite is another person that John had managed over the years. And so John's whole, you know, John, you're gonna kill me for saying this, but it's the, if you're listening, I guess. Um, but yeah, his whole thing was like, you know, I've got all these people that reported to me and now they're like doing better than I am.

[00:19:00] Like I'm still here. And I'm like, John, you're awesome though. Like your job is important to your role and like, you're just continuing to grow all these new people in the industry. I'm sure. Unconfident and he still looked agreement mentor to whoever's over

[00:19:11] Matthew Dunn: there. So yeah, that sounds, sounds like it's in the bone.

[00:19:14] Someone who takes that kindness, that kind of time. Right. And, and, and has that kind of long-term impact. So you you've got this arc from any sort of deliverability and beyond is I was, I was joking. And, and yet you're going to go huddle with a bunch of deliverability geeks next week. What are you going to talk about?

[00:19:34] Lauren Meyer: I mean, we're going to talk about a whole bunch of stuff, right? Yeah. And I think that's. It's there's so many different it's, it's so interesting. Cause it's like, you know, if you're in a mock session, right? Like if you go to an open round table, if anybody's ever been a part of that, that those conferences or any conference, to be honest, you've got those people that only speak in like RFCs and very technical language.

[00:19:51] Then you have people that are like there for the first time and they don't really know what they're doing and they're trying to learn. Everything in between. And so I feel like Andrew's conferences tend to do a really job, good job of like, kind of bridging that gap where there's like sessions that are kind of like very one-on-one, but then they get into like, Hey, now we're going to talk about, you know, how to get along with block lists specifically for service providers.

[00:20:13] And so then you know, that the audience is meant to be a little bit more technical and a little bit more kind of deep in the weeds and things like that. So, um, yeah, I think that's, that's one of the things that I love that. Those events. I feel like Andrew does a pretty good job of like curating a lot of different perspectives.

[00:20:26] Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm just kind of looking to nerd out as, as a guest myself. Um, I don't know.

[00:20:35] Matthew Dunn: And probably get to the extent you can have the informal social time on virtual events cause it's different, but you know, do some reconnecting. I'm going to get. With other people that you haven't seen or haven't chatted with as much.

[00:20:47] Lauren Meyer: Agreed. Yeah. And that's, it's so funny because there's some times where like, we'll just be chatting in like the group chat of the conference. And then there's other times where you just see someone and you're like, oh my gosh, I just saw you in the audience. And you're like texting with them or messaging on slack somewhere else or something.

[00:21:01] So it's, it's weird how it hits you. There was one session where. I think Matthew Burnett was, was speaking. And I had like my second screen and his face was like, as big as mine. And so I actually took a selfie of like the two of us kind of like, Hey, look, you know, I don't even know if I sent it to him cause I didn't want to bother him while he was in live session or something, but it was just, it was like, it's nice to some faces that, you know, and connect with people and, um, yeah, it's going to be very interesting when I first go to my comment.

[00:21:26] Have you been to any, any, uh,

[00:21:29] Matthew Dunn: Uh, no, the first one I'm going to, it will be the, um, the EIS yeah. In VA in Vegas. Um, and. I had actually, I've worked in a lot of different industries and not all of them have been that enjoyable. Um, so I kind of learned to loath conferences as a general rule, um, because they can, they can suck if the industry sucks.

[00:21:56] Like that's a succinct way to say it. Maybe. But email space is you said quite special, quite, quite, uh, uh, collegial and bonded and long-term relationships. So I really am looking forward, really looking forward and me, me and Vegas, we're not the best of friends, but I'm really looking forward to that conference

[00:22:16] Lauren Meyer: people.

[00:22:16] It's okay. It's

[00:22:18] Matthew Dunn: okay. Like just ignore the Caesar's palace noise in the periphery, because it just comes to the terror, you know, it'll it'll, it'll be huge. It'll be huge. Fun. You know, as someone who likes, who, who likes live, you know, live events, life speaking, life performance and stuff like that. Snare.

[00:22:35] It's not the same when it's mediated. It's just not.

[00:22:39] Lauren Meyer: Yeah, it's very, very different. And it's one of those in a way. I like it better because it's just me, myself and well, a tons of takes let's say because there's definitely times where I'm like LA and then like I messed up or I realized my glasses had been on for five minutes and that's all wasted tape.

[00:22:52] Right. So I like flip out on myself and then I'm back to being nice on camera. And if it's like, look you're trouble. That was miserable that day. This is, I can't believe this worked out. Okay. You know, so, um, but yeah, in person there's like that whole other pressure of just the social anxiety of it and like, what do you do?

[00:23:07] And so you just need to be kind of more comfortable, I think with yourself and then. Like, you know, if you screw up fine, just name it or ignore it or whatever you want to do just to dignify it and move on. And, um, you know, but yeah, there definitely is a very different element to it than from the virtual stuff.

[00:23:22] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. And that, that accidental bumping into, so, and so the unin, the unintentional part of life conferences in some ways, I think we're now seeing how bad. It was, I had a chance to interact with a CEO of a local company. That's got quite big, uh, big real estate co really big real estate company, but he built the company quite a visionary, built the company with a sort of a second life looking virtual platform as the office.

[00:23:54] Like that was his vision from the get go. He's like, if, if you're, if you're a real estate agent, God, why am I blanking on the name of his company? It'll come to me in a second. It's not Remax. It's another one with a short, short sword initials, exp Glenn Sanford exp Realty. So they're all interacting, walking their little avatars around in, in pseudo 3d space on the screen.

[00:24:16] That's the office, but he gave me a call to ask about something and toward me through the office that I'm on my screen. He's on his. Hmm, but one of the things that fascinated me about that little cartoony look in 3d space was the opportunity for accidents. Right? You could see, oh wait, Hey, wait. That's, Lauren's sitting over there.

[00:24:38] I will walk over and say, hi Lauren. And we might sit down and talk. And the, the, the zoom hop in current batch of, uh, conference technology. They've got the speed dating functions and stuff like that, but it doesn't quite have that same serendipitous thing going. Uh,

[00:24:58] Lauren Meyer: totally agree. And I would even take it a step further of like, you know, okay.

[00:25:01] Let's say that. I, I, I know I want to connect with a certain person. I could find them perhaps even still, if it's some kind of virtual thing, but I think the, my favorite part of, of going to the live events is actually when I do find one or two or three or, or whoever, the, the friendly faces that I know.

[00:25:17] And I'm going there cause I'm like, I am just so stressed out talking to strangers. I feel so uncomfortable and, and, and I feel more comfortable around them. And then someone they know, well, we'll walk up and the three of us or the four of us we'll have a really good conversation. And then now I have a new friend or a new friend.

[00:25:33] And so it just it's like, I was so intimidated by you, whoever you are. And now I'm not because I just had a normal conversation and I found out something really random and awesome fact about you owning a farm or you making your own maple syrup or doing whatever you do. And so it's, it's, it's the beauty of, of like growing your network through just you, you have your friends with people that are like you and then sort of that are good people and that you gravitate towards.

[00:25:55] And then your group of those people grows exponentially. When you're just given the space to kind of do it with it being very, just kismet kind of thing. Right. So that's my favorite part.

[00:26:07] Matthew Dunn: And, and, and when they're not. And intention, external intention driven, like I'm going to hunt down so-and-so because I want to try and sell them widgets.

[00:26:17] Right? Like wait a relationship. Right?

[00:26:20] Lauren Meyer: Like there's always an agenda when it's online. Whereas honestly, sometimes my agenda is actually, how do I get out of this conversation? Because you're intimidating me as quickly as possible. And not even in a bad way, intimidating, like you're just super smart. And I feel like I'm not a pull-up to talk to you.

[00:26:32] Right. Whatever that looks like. Um, that might be my motivation in that moment. But like yet, somehow we connect in a way. Then the next time I actually do need something or need some help or want to ask you a question. I feel more comfortable because there's like just this base relationship that just makes it feel less, less stressful.

[00:26:49] Matthew Dunn: And then in the long run, that's what makes the world go around in the agenda. Driven stuff comes and goes. And it's one of the things I like about this space. So if you were talking to, you know, young. You're in women of email. I'm sure I am.

[00:27:05] Lauren Meyer: Yes. Admittedly, not as activist as many of the others, but

[00:27:09] Matthew Dunn: sometimes it goes as well, depending on the demands of the job.

[00:27:12] Right. But if you're talking to a young, you know, new women of email member, How do you help her in that scenario? Understand how to sort of go along the path of deliverability and beyond? Yeah, well, and

[00:27:26] Lauren Meyer: I think it's much more than just deliverability. I would say it's like, whatever, whatever role it is with anyone, because that's part of the beauty of email is also the fact that there's.

[00:27:33] So many subsets of, of specialties that are all super hard to learn. And so it's like, which ones do you want to learn? And which ones compliment each other and which, how many can you learn? And then how quickly can you learn them? Right. So I think it's like, whatever you're, you're trying to do, I guess it's just like, be curious and like also just don't be afraid to fail.

[00:27:51] Like I think that's earlier in my career, it was like, oh, I have. I have to have all the answers and I need to reach out. And like, even if I want to escalate this to my boss, like I just need to like, make him, I don't want him to think I'm stupid, you know? And so it's like, you know, having, I think it's, it's really hard to say, like just surround yourself with good people.

[00:28:07] But I think that's where, you know, I've been in, in toxic situations at work where I didn't feel comfortable to ask questions. I didn't feel like I was growing. I had a manager that was too busy doing whatever they were doing it. And it's kind, kinda like. When I move up, you'll move up with me. And I'm like, but you're not trying to move up.

[00:28:21] You're playing on Facebook all day. So like, I don't know how we're ever going to do this. Like, I'm kind of stuck behind you. Right. So whatever that situation looks like, I think it's like trying to spot it more quickly. Like I had a certain job where I was there for four and a half years, and I probably learned about two years worth of stuff that, you know, it's like at some point it kind of plateaued.

[00:28:39] And instead of. Um, kind of just deciding that wasn't right for me, I was like, no, no, it's been a work. I'll just be naive and wait my turn and work really hard. And, and that just wasn't right. So I think, you know, maybe it would just be continuing, like, I don't want to just say lean in hard because in certain situations you're not able to like, I've had some managers who were kind of a terror.

[00:28:59] Like I had one who, if he didn't like what you said, I'm not joking. You had to do wall, sits in the meeting or go, I don't know, sit in the corner, facing the blobby in a glass window. You just, just things that are kind of in your like, but like really do we have to do that? And the answer is no you don't, but like in that moment you feel like you do.

[00:29:17] And so I don't know. So it, it's almost like trying to find. Ways to advance your career, but not at the expense of your mental health and your own growth and

[00:29:30] Matthew Dunn: confidence, dignity, confidence, stuff like that. I, I wondered your perspective is because neither of us are millennials. I'm not lumping us in the same generation, but neither of us are millennials.

[00:29:43] And I I've worked with them. And I have friends, friends who runs com run companies with lots of, you know, lots of millennial and like, whatever the. Crew is now. And they'll comment on how different it is to work with them and a mix of good and bad and mix of challenging and huge opportunity. At the same time, I have a hard time imagining a millennial sticking around.

[00:30:09] Go sit in the corner. They seem a lot more prone to go kiss my ass. I'll take the next job. Yeah.

[00:30:15] Lauren Meyer: And in fact, they, they, they left. Yeah. The ones that were younger, kind of didn't stick around for that. They didn't put up with it. And that's where I kind of just sort of suffered through some of it and, um, laughed along for awhile and just tried to buddy up to that person and then realize that was even more toxic and in different ways and all kinds of, yeah.

[00:30:30] So it was just a, you know, it's one of those, like you, you need to, it's really hard when you're in it. I think to, to recognize when people are sort of bad for you or toxic for you, but yeah. Especially if it's someone who is in your life daily and kind of just chips away at your confidence, like. That's really hard to overcome.

[00:30:43] It took me several, several years, overcome it. And it's like, thankfully, I just, something was going on that somebody reached out and recruited me to work at MailChimp. And I was just kind of angry enough at work that I was like, I'll just all have this conversation. And halfway through the conversation, I was like, am I actually interviewing right now?

[00:30:58] Oh my gosh, I'm really excited. Like, I actually. Skills that are relatable to this job. I did. I thought I was worthless and it's like, no, you weren't worthless. You just have a manager who, a manager's manager who doesn't believe in you. And so, uh, what do you do with that? Right? If that person's telling you I'll stay here, I'll protect you.

[00:31:16] Don't take that job. What are you going to do if that VP of sales disagrees with you? And I'm like, well, I'll tell him I disagree with him and I'll work my way through it. And we'll find a solution that's beneficial to both the plus. I don't know. I'll figure it out is the answer. Um, you know, so, so finding people, I think that, that aren't confident in you, or don't believe in you, or don't want to help raise you up or give you an opportunity to do anything.

[00:31:38] I think, um, just, just find somewhere else because there are definitely, you will find people, especially with an email, if that's what you're going for and just, um, yeah. You know, figure it out, figure it out, figure out what, what makes you happy and figure out people that are like-minded.

[00:31:53] Matthew Dunn: And it's fun when you can land in a team, it sounds like you certainly have land land in a, in a team where like everyone's pulling in the same direction and you really stop worrying.

[00:32:06] You worrying about the structural malfunctions. And I know it's easier at a small scale to be fair. I know it's usually the small, um, there are, high-performing really big companies, but they're not many of them.

[00:32:22] Lauren Meyer: Yeah. I think it's, you know, it's one of those. There's definitely challenges in small companies as well, obviously very different ones, but I think it's, for me, it's at least you get the ability to be nimble, to learn a lot, to fail fast kind of thing. Whereas in a bigger company, I almost almost have this mental image of just kind of like where you're like, just to do anything.

[00:32:39] It's like turning the Titanic around, you know, and you're, you're just, you're pulling so hard to get any little thing done. Because of all the approvals and all the steps and all the priorities within the company that have to align for you to kind of get that thing done. Whereas in a smaller company, there's, there tends to be less red tape in that sense.

[00:32:57] Like if you're, if you're on the same path with your people, if you're on this, you know, if you're on the same mindset, um, you, you can figure out what's most important to you guys for achieving your goals. You know? So that's, that's been fun. I think

[00:33:09] Matthew Dunn: w we, you know, I don't know that we'll ever figure out how to escape.

[00:33:14] Uh, how to scale organizations in terms of number of people beyond those bumps, some of them are inevitable. Some of them are just kind of hard stops in the way we're wired. I think. Have you heard of Dunbar's? No, this is great. One, uh, I can't remember the guy's first name Dunbar, 150 around 150 Dunbar made the observation that there's this natural size.

[00:33:39] You see it in tribes, you see it, et cetera. And it's now it's called Dunbar's number around 150. That's about the number of relationships that you can essentially keep in your head and on the tip of your tongue. And when a company goes beyond Dunbar's number, you start getting. Oh, I don't know him or her, or I don't know them.

[00:34:00] And I remember reading years ago that, uh, uh, gore WL gore is in, Gore-Tex put that into the structure of their multifaceted business as a division. Grew of it got bigger than 150 they've split it up. Wow. That makes baby businesses out of it to keep that well, we're all pulling the same direction. Cause almost all of us.

[00:34:24] Each other set of connections, which is such a, like, that's such a strong bonding thing.

[00:34:29] Lauren Meyer: Yeah, for sure. I just thought that that's really interesting. I could see it. I mean, I've yeah. I've been at that tipping point in a couple of companies where you feel the difference. You feel the shift, you feel that I, oh, well, I didn't get a chance to meet that person when they joined the company.

[00:34:41] Like I used to do with everybody. Is that the dynamic shift and the, yeah. The quality of work kind of, it can get lost if you're, if you're not mindful of kind of

[00:34:49] Matthew Dunn: pulling back. Yeah. At the same time, you know, there, there are things that require more than one or two or 10 or a hundred to accomplish. I remember reading the Quip about, I think it was the, the Navy was designed by geniuses to be run by idiots.

[00:35:01] I think it was the Quip. Right. You get to go at a certain scale. You have to do a bunch of. Like process and, and, and, and, uh, planning work so that the efforts of someone way down in the tree are actually helping move, move, whatever the, the ball is, whether or not they know it. I just wonder in an age of knowledge work, if that's feasible, Yeah,

[00:35:28] Lauren Meyer: it's a great question.

[00:35:30] You know, it's so funny because, um, I don't like to use the word idiots or other words like that, because I don't mean right. But like, in a way it's kinda like, you know, like email for idiots, right? You feel for dummies or whatever you wanna get. Let's say it's it's um, that idea that like, we almost, we need to make email so simple, you know, it's like it is so complex and it's, it truly is, you know, it's one of those, um, I was on a call this morning where they were talking about almost like the fact that there's shifts.

[00:35:52] Um, content out, you know, with the whole apple MP thing, and the fact that, you know, Ooh, chores, five pixels, we're tracking, opens all this stuff. It's so scary. Um, there really aren't a lot of, there's not a lot of stuff written out there about the. That it's not scary or that it's actually beneficial to you in certain ways, because it helps with personalization or it helps you just have a better email experience.

[00:36:11] Like imagine you turn all that stuff off. And all of a sudden you're really angry at that brand for being really bad at targeting to you because you don't realize that it's actually your fault. Like you're going to turned off the tracking and now they have no idea what you like. So it's obviously there are ways for us to glean information just outside of the opens and things like that.

[00:36:29] But I think. There's so much education that needs to be done to, to prove to people that it's not just. Well, yeah, it create some pretty piece of content you hit send, and then it magically goes to the inbox, right? I mean, that's our entire, my entire business. And my company is, is built around that, that, that like last mile of delivery, like literally the point from when you hit send, you think it's just a nanosecond and it's there, but it's like, This whole conversation happening and there's all this back and forth, and there's all this data that's being passed around.

[00:36:56] And there's all these filters that just look like somebody running a race with, with, you know, like little hurdles. You have to jump over, just if it's all these, these different factors that matter. Um, people think it's really simple, but it's, it can be, that's the thing. It can be really simple until it's not.

[00:37:13] And it's like, once you kind of go off the rails, I think that's. You know, it's like, wait, where do we, I guess it's interesting because like, where do you draw the line between what people want to know about email, what they need to know about email. You know, I think that's, that's, that's where I always get tripped up because it's like, you want to teach people to be better than, you know, but honestly, a lot of businesses I've even talked to, you know, CIO CTOs who are from very technical companies and they still don't really want to know how email works or they don't know how their email program works and that's okay because they're trusting other people to kind of do it.

[00:37:44] So I think that's like, it's just. Yeah, it's tricky in all of these, you know, I think like Megan, um, from path wire, a person who does this really well for accessibility. So she's just been kind of like trying to break it down in a way that's just like, you know, accessible if there's like a lot to think about and there's a lot to do, and there's all these best practices.

[00:38:00] You can just say it. Just think about it from the perspective of what matters. Right. And so I think that's, I don't know if you're trying to kind of trying to like find people on the level of like, what is going to help you sort of like, just have a small enough impact to, to like, get through, to give somebody one or two tips that they can actually, you know, make action on.

[00:38:17] So I feel like

[00:38:18] Matthew Dunn: that's what I feed that one back to you is in, in sort of a pragmatic sense. I see like email marketers, for example, who don't think they need to know anything about deliverability. It till they get bit in the ass, but a big mistake. And then like, oh, I guess he should have some idea of, you know, at least the things I shouldn't do.

[00:38:40] So I don't get bit in the ass again by doing the wrong stuff for like, for example, because it actually does affect them farther up that, that stuff.

[00:38:49] Lauren Meyer: Right. I think that's the trick is almost like it's like the chicken or the egg kind of thing. It's like, okay, well, ideally you shouldn't have to care about deliverability until you have a problem.

[00:38:56] But like all of the bricks that you're laying to hit, the inbox are really hard to like, are you going to just knock down your house? So like how many times have you had a conversation with someone where they, you know, you give a recommendation and they say, well, we can't do that. Like breaks our entire business model or that's essential to our business model, or we just can't develop that that's not possible.

[00:39:17] And you're like, well, that's the thing that you need to do to fix your issue. Um, but, but it's, they, they they're too far down the road kind of thing almost so it's um, yeah, there needs to be just that basic level of understanding of like, these are the things that really do matter. And here's why.

[00:39:34] Matthew Dunn: Most of us, most of us in technical fields, suck at explaining whatever it is.

[00:39:40] We actually understand. I honestly, I used to explain other people's stuff for a living and, and like, like say like, you know, this stuff, so you're going to suck at explaining it. That's why you hired us. Right. So give me a brain dump and then get out of the way. No, you don't get to test the script. Go on.

[00:39:59] It's because that, uh, the, the, the distinguishing the useful from what, you know, right. The essential from that next layer up or sideways in, in the structure, from what you've already got in your head, it's the curse of knowledge. Right? You get the curse of knowledge. It's a very hard thing to. Well, and I think

[00:40:18] Lauren Meyer: that's, that's, what's, you know, it's so interesting because just, I mean, going back to, gosh, talk about going back to the beginning of the pandemic.

[00:40:23] Wasn't two 50. Okay. Acquired by validity. Let's say a month into that in February, let's say right. Or March, March. Um, and since then, and you know, Kickbox is one of them that I work for everybody is kind of rushing to do, to release these deliverability monitoring tools, but they all kind of still sort of work in the same way where it's like, you kind of, you need to know the context behind.

[00:40:46] The tools. So like, if you can give me a really wonderful dashboard that shows me all the spam traps I'm hitting and gives me details to trace that breadcrumb back to the source and fix it. But I need to know what that data even means and how I'm supposed to interpret it. And. I need to pass it on to somebody in my organization who doesn't understand it even as well as I do.

[00:41:05] And then they're going to interpret that graph completely different. So it's, it's like, I think that's the challenge is like the tools are there. There's tons of tools. There's one for literally every single budget, but it's just the aspect. That's really hard as the consultation that comes along with it to say, You know, it's almost like that little paragraph at the top of the custom report that you get from every ESP is the most important part.

[00:41:28] Like that's the, so what that's, what's telling you what you need to do or not do, or what matters or what what's broken or, you know, so I don't know. It's tough when, when you just have all these tools and you're not really sure what to do because you're not the person who understands this stuff. You're just being told.

[00:41:44] This is a great tool. This is a great solution. Oh, do you see a testing? Oh, do panel data. Whatever you need. Um, if you don't know what you're doing with it, or if you don't know how it's built, it's, it's really challenging to, to

[00:41:54] Matthew Dunn: know how to say it's kind of the, it's kind of the, uh, the Google and the dark.

[00:42:00] Boundary rights. Like someone goes and gets a bad report on X, and they're going to come back into the next thing, having Googled, blah, blah, blah. And the doctor's gonna go. Yeah. Thanks. I appreciate you finding that you don't have nine years of med school to make fricking sense of it. So leave the Google report at home and.

[00:42:21] There's a point where you go trust me, because I actually do do this. Right. Right. And, and you're not going to fix it yourself or figure it out yourself. Like, yeah. So, and, and, and I don't think that. Uh, human, uh, ability to put the puzzle together is going to disappear. Many of these equations, like, are there tools for X?

[00:42:41] Yes. Did they have their limits? Always.

[00:42:43] Lauren Meyer: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, Laura Atkins once referred to this, she was like, you know, like somebody was asking almost like, you know, Uh, a tool or is there a way to automate deliverability functions? And Laura's response was like, we're not fungible like that.

[00:42:57] We are doing something that's very specific. We're doing something that like, you know, it requires nuance and context, and we all know the favorite, you know, the favorite industry phrase is it depends, but that's really true, right? Like it depends on the goals, the things you're doing, the way you're sending.

[00:43:14] Audience that you're sending to so many things. Yeah. All of it matters in the way. It really is. Um, it's not something that you can just automate away and just, just assume it's going to work. It really requires like, that's, uh, you know, you could have automation like that. You know, we've got some reporting internally and we've got people that are literally just kind of like tweaking and playing with our MTAs.

[00:43:31] Like they see something happen for one customer and they're like, oh, that's interesting. Let's build a custom rule for all of our customers that works to solve that. Right. So it's like, we're doing certain things. And I think that's where. You just, you need people that can use the tools, right? Like if you've got a Ferrari, but it's a student driver and he's not allowed to go above 30 miles an hour, like, what do you need to do?

[00:43:50] Having that hard buddy? Like, you know, like that's not going to end well, so I think it really is just that pairing of like, Pick pick stuff, pick tools and technology that worked for you, but like pair them with people who know how to use them. And you know, if somebody is like, Hey, like, well, do you need more devs?

[00:44:06] And you're like, I don't know. Yeah. I'll take more devs. Like why, why do you need more deaths? What are you gonna do with those desks? Like what are you going to build? What are you trying to solve? What are you trying to, are you improving a deliverability issue? Are you trying to make more money? Are you trying to expand your audience?

[00:44:17] Like, what is your point? Um, let's talk about that first and then see if it matters that you're going to the spam folder at mail dot argue. When you send to. Recipients in that country, you know? So it's, um, the context is super important. I think that's something that people oftentimes, unfortunately don't get, because they're trying to use self-service tools and make apples out of oranges

[00:44:39] on

[00:44:39] Matthew Dunn: their own.

[00:44:40] So when a, your challenges and opportunities in the hat with that you're wearing now is to be on the, the other side of the selectivities equation and help in this case, SocketLabs. You know what needs to be clear and understood and explained. And because you can't put it all in the marketing one pager

[00:45:07] right. You gotta boil it down, simplify it and, and identify what's actionable if they do understand it. And what's got him, sorry, it's got to stay behind the curtain, but talk to us, we'll help you with that. Yeah. And that line. All the time. Of course it does. It's not an easy job to peg that stuff down. Uh, long enough for someone to, you know, to get and go, I should talk with you guys more because this sounds like my set of problems and you really get it and things like that.

[00:45:36] Lauren Meyer: Very true. Yeah. Very much so. Yeah, it is. It is interesting when it's just, you know, that the call, it's almost like one of those, like choose your own adventure type of things where it's like, you know, based on your first answer, then go here and then do this. And, and like, you know, this. Discovery call on paper is going to look way different in person when you actually get into people's issues.

[00:45:55] And the way that their team structure is set up and the technology that they're using and all of it. Right. And the goals that they have with email, all that good stuff, you are an

[00:46:03] Matthew Dunn: amazing of twisty passages. All right. Yes. As it started, uh, What next for socket, lads, any big stuff on their

[00:46:13] Lauren Meyer: horizon? Yeah.

[00:46:15] We've got some stuff in the works. I mean, I think that's, you know, it's interesting because it's like, you know, we, we really are, our business is kind of a lot, like, you know, let's say SendGrid SparkPost, Mailgun bef well, let's say before acquired and got acquired and acquired other companies and all that kind of stuff.

[00:46:30] Right. So it's. It is just that last mile of delivery. But I think there was just so, and I know this is probably something Tim said as well, but it's like, we're trying to optimize the pipe. Right. Like I do think it's one of those, like, everyone's kind of just been using like a dumb pipe all this time and it's like, there's ways to optimize it, to just make it smarter and it doesn't need to be something that's completely different.

[00:46:49] It just, it could be a mix of just having people who actually. Are paying attention and who care and tools that are geared around what actually is good for deliverability and for making the mail more consistent and more, I don't know, just, just more timely, right? Like we, we have a lot of customers that are transactional centers.

[00:47:05] And so it's, it's super important for that mail to be delivered. Right away if it's even, you know, imagine I was trying to change a flight when I actually flew for the first time, since the pandemic and my flight was canceled. Um, those three minutes that it took for a certain airline to deliver that password reset to my inbox were the longest three minutes of my life.

[00:47:24] Um, yeah, so it's like, it's super important. And I, so I think that's what we're trying to. Really optimize that last little bit of delivery of like, Hey, here, here's how you can change certain things and kind of tweak this specifically to your needs and to the, to the destinations you're sending to. And then again, just, just make, I mean, really make reporting a little bit easier.

[00:47:42] Like we're working on something right. Probably going to call guided recording, but essentially it's just that of just we found your issue or alerting you of your issue, but we're also landing you directly on what that issue is so that you can identify how to fix it. So it's like it's helping you really just skip all of those hours of investigation of like, do I have a problem?

[00:47:59] I don't have time to investigate if I have a problem, I'll just wait until it gets really bad. And somebody complains to me about it. Right. So this just makes you much more proactive in that sense. So it's, we're basically just doing a lot of bad. I'm trying to, to make it easier for. The typical Joe Schmoe to be able to send email, but then as your program gets much more complex.

[00:48:16] And as you move into where you've got lots of sub users or give you're an agency who's caught 20 different, you know, um, customers, or if you're a service provider who is sending from one of our competitors right now, just making it easier for you to actually be able to send your mail and get the client's feedback, to make sure that your shared pools are staying as pristine as they need to be.

[00:48:37] Just limiting the noise, landing more on solutions and outcomes, as opposed to just all the random data signals that are kind of floating around at this point. So, um, yeah.

[00:48:45] Matthew Dunn: Is it, I know it's gotta be daunting, but is it a bit fun to be. Kind of the scrappy independent voice?

[00:48:55] Lauren Meyer: Uh, yes. Yes. I feel like I am. Um, I am a bit of a troublemaker in that sense where it's like really fun and I get these really crackpot ideas sometimes where I'm like that could work or that could be a huge waste of time.

[00:49:06] So I think, I feel like there's, there's this responsibility knowing that my team is, is much smaller than the other people. So our time is precious and, you know, so. Misstep or mistake, if you will feels like a bigger one. So it's more just really trying to kind of like, make sure I'm paying attention and following the industry and following the signals and the data and working with my team to really come together and like just, just make it a team effort.

[00:49:30] And I think that's been really exciting cause it's like, we're just, you know, a lot of us are doing this for the first time. And in terms of like being kind of the head of our department, as opposed to just one of the, one of the gates on the deliverability team, There was a little bit of that learning curve of just kind of like, alright, well, how do we, what are the priorities and who should be doing this and that.

[00:49:46] And ultimately it was a lot of, kind of like that Spiderman meme where it's like you pointing at me and me pointing at you because it's like, we should be doing it together. Is the answer. It's not, it's not marketing's job. It's not product's job. Both of our job, along with the revenue marketing folks and, and Tim is our CEO.

[00:50:02] It's it's, you know, it's it's so that's cool. And we have that comradery,

[00:50:05] Matthew Dunn: that comradery and cohesiveness is what gives you the option to react and pivot from know, we all make mistakes, right? You go, oh, we should be on that direction. Okay. Right. Turn, go back that way. Right. If you're driving a really big bus that.

[00:50:23] Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which is, uh, I dunno, I think, I think you can get spoiled at a small scale in some respects, right. And that, uh, that. That ability to be decisive, which is kind of fun. It's kind of fun. Well, we should hit wrap so that I can, uh, get this as part of your 15 minutes of fame up into the universe before the deliverability.

[00:50:49] But thanks for arranging the call and the conversation was as much fun as I expected it. Yeah, this

[00:50:56] Lauren Meyer: was great. I mean, it's, it's so funny. I will say you, you intimidate me because I've just, I've seen you interview other people in your you're awesome. Like, I just feel like you, you have a ton of knowledge, like you just, you know, a lot of stuff, you know, you know, a lot of stuff.

[00:51:07] Right. So, so it's one of those like yeah. And knowing your show is random. It's kinda one of those, like, I don't know where this is going to go, so it's almost hard to prepare, but in a way that's good because the whole point here, just, yeah, just, just chat, right? Just

[00:51:23] Matthew Dunn: chat. Yeah. Thanks. You too. Here's our official wrap.

[00:51:27] Lauren Meyer CMOs SocketLabs. Catch her next week, April 5th at the deliverability. So there's that? Deliverability summit.com. Let me look up the

[00:51:37] Lauren Meyer: deliverability summit.com. There you go.

[00:51:40] Matthew Dunn: That's it. We're out.

[00:51:41]