A Conversation With Elizabeth Jacobi of MochaBear Marketing

An effective email program can help a small business grow. Creating and running one is a specialty. Elizabeth Jacobi is the specialist.

Elizabeth's company Mocha Bear Marketing puts her decades of deep experience in high-level email programs directly to work for the small-business clients that are her passion.

For this episode, Elizabeth Zoomed in from Southern California to share some of her insights and observations with host Matthew Dunn.

Her observation that small businesses frequently hire bookkeepers to sort out Quickbooks and accounting is a natural comparison; if that saves time on the cost side, why not invest in the same kind of specialization on the growth side?

This episode has invaluable insights for any small-business owner or operator, and great inspirations for email marketers!

TRANSCRIPT

A Conversation With

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[00:00:00]

Matthew Dunn: Good morning. This is Dr. Matthew Dunn host of the future of email. My guest today. I'm delighted to have on board Elizabeth Jacoby, founder of mocha bear marketing, Elizabeth. Yay. We get to

Elizabeth Jacobi: talk. Hi. Hey, thanks for having me. Yeah. Excited to be

Matthew Dunn: here. Thanks for thanks for joining up. Um, give people the, the, the nickel version of mocha.

Elizabeth Jacobi: Oh, so I started milk marketing in 2017, but I've been in the email marketing space. Yeah. For over 20 years. Yeah. Uh, I worked for Cheeta mail, which is now Cheeta digital. And I worked for a CRM agency. And I really wanted to work with small businesses, which was not possible. Um, when I worked in the agency world, uh, we only worked with large enterprise brands mm-hmm

So [00:01:00] today I work primarily with small and mid-size businesses and helping them take that same large brand strategy to their small

Matthew Dunn: business. Now I'm, I'm a hundred percent, uh, simpatico with the. I, I like working with small businesses, but tell me where that comes from.

Elizabeth Jacobi: I think I've always had a passion for small business where, you know, the owner where you kind of walk into a place and the owner is there talking to you?

Um, that's sort of always been something that I've loved even. As a kid, I went to college at UC Davis, which was a small college town. And often the business owner would be at the bagel shop, the coffee place, the bookstore mm-hmm . And I just, I always really enjoyed hearing their story. And I, while I, I loved working with.

Big brands. I, I needed the experience to help small businesses by working with those big brands. [00:02:00] Yeah. Um, my passion has always been more around small business. Yeah. And really kind of helping them and they don't have the same budget or resources that right. A large brand has. So, you know, it's really important that they're able to market.

They're restaurant their store, their e-commerce business. Um, you know, just as much as a large brand with a big

Matthew Dunn: budget. Well, and arguably an effective email program is even more important for a, for a small business. Isn't it? I would

Elizabeth Jacobi: say yes, definitely. Um, one of my one client that I picked up during the shut, the pandemic shutdown was a small restaurant locally here, and they were super popular.

When they they'd only been open about six or seven months when oh wow. The shutdown happened. So they were new. Yeah. But they were a local business. They, they raised their kids in the [00:03:00] neighborhood and it was still hard for them. So by setting them up with an email program and they were already collecting email address, but didn't really know how to send yeah.

Or what to send. Uh, they were able to really grow their business during a time. So many businesses were not able to grow. And it made me realize even more that small businesses almost you're right. Need it more than a big business. We all know big brands because you see it when you're driving, you go to the mall.

Yeah. It's the smaller brands that tend to be forgotten about, I guess. Yeah.

Matthew Dunn: Yeah. And they're, they're, they're, they're competing with that spend. Well, and also if they're, if their geography. Centric, you know, not small business making, you know, custom widget for bicyclists or whatever, but restaurant, uh, or, or something like that.

Repeat customer loyal customer, big deal, right. Backbone of your business. And that's where, yeah, [00:04:00] the kind of marketing that you're helping him do is all about is, is as much about that growing, growing, that loyal customer base and, and serving them as the constant new that the Billboard's gonna. I

Elizabeth Jacobi: often describe like, especially when people are kind of unclear, like what email marketing really is.

I often say it's about building loyal relationships, um, retaining your customers. It's not just about sending an email and trying to get someone to purchase. I mean, obviously that's ideal, but it's really. You know, building that relationship and it's one to one, whereas social media, I mean, I like and follow and unfollow businesses all the time.

um, email is a little harder. I don't unsubscribe often I sometimes stop reading, but you know, for the most part, I do look at email a lot more than I look at, um, my social media and I think [00:05:00] for a small business, that's why it's so important.

Matthew Dunn: Are you seeing, uh, are you seeing texting play a role or, or even an increasing role for small business scale customers?

so I've

Elizabeth Jacobi: seen it a little bit, um, more in those who are eCommerce mm-hmm and like only eCommerce that they have an interest in SMS. I, you know, I wanted to add SMS to my services and I pilot. Few programs for myself. And as I mentioned it to my clients, no, there, I didn't have as many takers as I thought.

Uh, they really wanted to keep their focus around email. And I, you know, SMS is something that I was interested in many years ago, like when it first started and I do [00:06:00] think there's a great tie in to. But it it's coming to my phone in the same way that my friend or my husband or my mom texts me. And I'm just, I think for certain businesses, they're just not that comfortable with it yet.

Yeah.

Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Um, yeah. I, I , it was, it's a rabbit hole. We could, we could probably go way, way down, but. I've been watching this landscape with some in considerable interest of the last couple of years, the messaging, which is not just SMS, but the messaging thing and the email thing and watching him sort of Jostle and jockey.

And, and what you said, I think, I think has a whole bunch of merits, like the, the interrupt, the, the, the, the way you use that channel, the message channel tends to be personal and relationship centric. right now and like, yeah. Are there businesses? I know well enough care about, well enough where I'd [00:07:00] say, sure, I want you on that channel.

You know, not many of them. And honestly, what do they have to say that I want to be interrupted about on any regular basis?

Elizabeth Jacobi: I'm glad you said. I thought it was just me. That felt that way. Mm-hmm I will tell you the SMS is that I marketing messages that I like mm-hmm is the re like a dinner reservation reminder, um, utility that I like saying, you know, please confirm your reservation tomorrow.

I prefer that to come to me via text it's like the old days. Calling to confirm your reservation. Yeah. I also like it, um, a Shopify, I, I think, does this, does that, where they tell you your package is out for delivery? Yes. And that I like, because I, I like to know that there's going to be a package at my door sometime that day.

Yeah. Um, but when I get the constant sales messages, do you like this outfit? I'm like, right. I just don't have time to reply to your text message or

Matthew Dunn: read it. Yes. Yes. Well, and, and there's [00:08:00] like the, the kind of messages you mentioned, I think in E uh, those of us in the email space would say, uh, more like triggers, right?

More like what I, I said utility, like they're, they're part of something that's already happening. They're they're helping make that thing happen. They are not trying to make a new thing, a new sale happen. Yeah. And my, my, my dentist. God bless him. Right? Like beep text message. Hey, Hey ding, Don, you remember when you set that appointment six months ago, I'm like, oh, thank you.

Right. But see, that's a helpful message. It's a helpful message. Yeah. Yeah. But Hey, we're having a sale on crowns. Uh, don't do that to me. Right. Seriously. Don't do, don't do that to me. Um, yeah. Ag agreed. And I think in part. It's such a high, it's such a high priority interrupt when it goes, Bing, I am going to look, you are going to, to look, um, and there may be small businesses, local businesses where the nature of what they do [00:09:00] fits that, but the plumbing infrastructure to do let's call 'em triggered texts, man, I could.

I could see turnkey system for dentist's office having that wired in. But if you're kind of starting from scratch as a, as a small business restaurant, as you mentioned, um, may be way down the list of priorities. Uh, if it's not built into, uh, reservation system, like open table or something like that, so you're not gonna get to

Elizabeth Jacobi: it.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. I, I feel like SMS needs to be even more one to one than email. Uh, you know, if a, put a store that I shop at. Texted me and said, Hey, we just got some new arrivals that we think, you know, would be perfect. They're just your style that I'm likely to say, great, I'm coming in really one to one, but, but that's very one to one.

Yeah. Whereas I just don't get a lot of, I get a few of those, but for the most part, it's the same thing I'm getting in their email. Yeah.

Matthew Dunn: Yeah. [00:10:00] Yeah. And, and, and as we, you know, request for personalization of one to. In email pushing that same quest to the point of actual, uh, you know, psychological ROI for the customer in the text channel is gonna be super detailed.

I, I, um, I'm a long, long time Amazon customer, cuz I, uh, I happen to live in Seattle when Amazon started am I ? My Amazon ID is from 90. Wow. Yeah. Uh, same one. You're an early adopter. Oh yeah. Always, always, always, always. Right. But I, I kinda watch Amazon cuz you know, the scale they've gotten to and the resources they've got.

If, if someone's gonna try something in a channel, they're probably gonna try it. And Amazon is never ask me for texting permission, which is interest. It's like, okay. Yeah, yeah. They're not doing it. And I probably wouldn't say yes anyway, cuz my word, my phone would never stop dinging, but if they're not doing it, then [00:11:00] maybe it doesn't make sense for a restaurant to do it.

Okay. Enough enough of the texting, uh, texting rabbit hole will come. We'll come back to the, to the more viable terrain of, of email. What do you find. You say you land a new customer. Restaurant's an easy one to talk about. What do you find that tend to be the, the easy pickings like, oh, I can help. 'em do this, this and this.

And it's gonna, it's gonna change their business immediately.

Elizabeth Jacobi: Um, so I usually ask them, you know, where they're struggling, um, or where their challenges are. Mm-hmm . So using the restaurant space, you know, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or big restaurant night. So it's the other nights where they may not be getting as many people in the door as they would like.

So, you know, sometimes we'll talk about what can we do to incentivize people to come in on those nights? What can we do to make your, your email people who are your most loyal? [00:12:00] Customers feel special mm-hmm um, in some cases we'll, you know, tell them that they should start reserving their tables for the weekend now to make sure that they get in.

Um, in other cases, you know, they'll have like weekly specials that just go out to the email list. So really working with them to kind of help them understand that we're using email to target their most loyal customers. And we do want new people to subscribe, obviously. Sure. But we wanna make sure that when people subscribe, they're feeling more special than.

Customer that either just walks in and is from out of town or who books on open table. Like, yes, we want them to feel just as special, but really to make sure that their email people are feeling even more special than everyone else. Got it. So, and also, um, you know, Building that brand [00:13:00] awareness. I, I read this statistic and this was a few years ago, so I'm sure it's changed that 47% of people that had a good experience at any type of business.

It wasn't restaurant specific don't return because there's so many options. There's so many options whether it's online or, you know, just in, in the same neighborhood. So kind of reminding people, you know, who you are and, and why they exist, why they came in. Yeah. Yeah. I also, um, I'm a big believer in small businesses telling their story, you know, because they are more unique than a big chain.

Um, you know, why should people come in? Like who they are. What's their reason for starting their business. Yeah. They, you know, in most cases they have some type of passion that made them start their, their own business. So I really wanna make sure that that story is told, cuz I think that that tends to resonate.

Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:00] And, and, and it's a. It's an asset that the big box does not have. Like, I don't, I don't care about the story of fill the blanks big box chains. Like, like you're just a, you're just a box with other boxes and it, at this point, what, yeah, it's good. And, and it's interesting that you, it, it, it's interesting that, that that's the, you know, the easy, easy pickings, the, um, you know, grow, grow that relationship.

Do do. small businesses tend to have the sort of data and technical, uh, house in order when they come to you or are they like, oh, we have a MailChip account and there's dust on it.

Elizabeth Jacobi: Yeah, I think it's more that um, I don't think I'm actually speaking at the Western food, food service and hospitality show later this month.

Okay. And one of the topics that I'm gonna talk about. What data do you have that can help your email [00:15:00] program? Mm-hmm I feel like a lot of businesses don't even realize what data they have. Yeah. Uh, they, you know, most of their websites today, you can subscribe to a newsletter. That's great. Hopefully you're sending some are still not sending.

Um, but you know, you have point of sale data. You have the email data, you know what people click on, like where they're going within the email. So I think for the most part, it's not that they don't have the data it's that they don't use it, know what to do with what they

Matthew Dunn: have. Yeah. Yeah. And, and to be fair, it's frequently, it's the same problem.

You see an enterprises it's siloed, right? Oh yeah. We've got a bunch of names and emails, but they're in the point of sales system where we don't know how to get 'em from there to. You know, fill in the blanks. The other thing that actually sends emails on a regular basis. Yeah. And it's tough. And if they do it once making it happen all the time can be a, it can be a ton of work.[00:16:00]

yeah.

Elizabeth Jacobi: Yeah. I try to help them automate it, um, as much as possible, but , you know, I, there are some systems that can't be automated. I have one client, we live data every single Monday. It's a manual process. Yeah. Uh it's you know, it's a pain, but it's the only way unless they were to hire someone to build them an API call.

Yeah. And then someone needs to manage that and they're just not, you know, going to spend. The budget on that, uh, they don't see the importance of

Matthew Dunn: it. Well, and you can open a really run a really successful restaurant and never have to know what the heck API stands for. So we are bringing a, like a, a, a different, a different frame or reference to that.

I, I I'm of the opinion that, that, that Zappier, and, and, and no code automation platforms like that could be the small businesses, best friends, but I've got friends that run small businesses and they're like, Uh, that's too technical. [00:17:00] Like that's actually fair. Right? That's actually fair you. As easy as it looks, it still requires a whole bunch of, uh, yeah.

Yeah. Knowledge and detail. And.

Elizabeth Jacobi: that is one of the things that I set up for. Um, I use that B for a lot of my clients and it's a, it's a tool that saves me a ton of time. Exactly. Yeah. It's super helpful for them. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's intended to be user friendly and I guess those of us in the email world, it is user friendly, but for someone who's not someone who's running a restaurant or a store or a small e-commerce.

It, it's not as intuitive as you would think. It's yeah. It, it,

Matthew Dunn: it, it still isn't. And, uh, technology platforms that are very well built for a given purpose, particularly if, if they've been around for any number of years, aren't necessarily, uh, prone to making the data in their. [00:18:00] easy to get to, or to sync or something like that.

You know, great point of sale systems that have an API, uh, small list cause point of sale guys don't tend to think and write those terms.

Elizabeth Jacobi: Hmm. Yeah, it's true. It's amazing to me today that even with some of these newer technologies that they didn't think about integrations yeah. With these other small business platforms and that it's, it's still not easy.

Yeah. You know, I came from the world where we had developers. And if you needed an API call built no problem. Right. You know, like yes, there was a cost and it needed to be monitored, but it was done. Yeah. And that's not easy for most businesses. Yeah.

Matthew Dunn: And, and, and the, you know, the company that's building a, you know, widget management platform for customers is so widget.

It's like if most of their customers aren't asking for. It's not gonna go up on the priority list of, of, [00:19:00] of things to get done. You know, I see, I see enterprise grade stuff being more and more and more API first API centric, but that wave's not even a decade old. Um, right. So it's small wonder that platform focused, focused on SMBs are, are not necessarily putting that at the top of their list of things to do.

if you end up with a whole bunch of Zapier triggers, you know, holding the pieces together, babysitting that, maintaining that it's, it's not zero work. So you were, no, it does. like you,

Elizabeth Jacobi: I had a client this week who changed something so simple in a spreadsheet and broke everything, everything and you know, it was like such a minor change.

And in my head, I thought, why is it not smart enough to know that this change was just a change to [00:20:00] the name, the tab name? Yeah. And it wasn't, you know, it broke the whole

Matthew Dunn: thing. Yeah. Boom. And usually, boom, that you didn't realize happened until sometime went. Why is, why is that not working anymore? Start tracing it all the way back.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, where. We're a dev shop. We've got developers and we struggle with keeping things bandaid together and making sure automations work and all that other stuff. And yeah, someone could change a tab name and boom, right. Something. Yeah. It's, it's such a small thing. It's such a small law of UN love unintended consequences.

Well, it's not, it looks like a technology, a bunch of technology issues in a sense it is, but it's also data. Uh, data issue, digital data issues. You know, you, you, you said those of us in the email space and I was kind of rephrasing. It was like those of us who end up handling, using connecting [00:21:00] data, think, think of things in a, quite a different way.

Then someone who's concern is, is, is more immediate and physical, you know, boxes, shipments, supplies, you know, uh, uh, food, safety, stuff like that. Like it hasn't been abstracted yeah. With digital data. So if you don't do that stuff all day, it's, you don't realize. what it could do, how difficult it is, how brittle and prone to breaking it is.

Um, and how kind of Jerry rig the whole darn thing is really honestly,

Elizabeth Jacobi: it's sometimes people will say, well, why should I hire, you know, an email consultant or an expert? And my like the way I explain it to them. You need to run your business like for you? The most important thing is business revenue is your operations running efficiently, and I'll worry about the marketing side of it, the email marketing.

And [00:22:00] I think that resonates with them versus, well, you just need an email program. Yeah, because the truth is with MailChimp, with constant contact, I guess anyone can go in and send an email. It doesn't. Doing anything?

Matthew Dunn: Yeah, I could, I, I, I could draw it down to the store and buy a sharp knife that doesn't make me a surgeon.

Elizabeth Jacobi: I hope not.

Matthew Dunn: I hope not really. Wait here, lie. Still. Let me try this.

um, switch gears for a second. You've had an interesting journey from corporate enterprise to back to that place that you're passionate about SMB, which. You got to go through the fun and games and joys of, of founder and, and starting a thing and being a small business as well. What was the, what was the biggest surprise about that shift?

Oh,

Elizabeth Jacobi: I, to me, the biggest surprise [00:23:00] was that no one has ridden a step by step guide of if you want to start your own business, you need to think of a through Z. Uh, that to me was the biggest challenge. I knew the basics. I knew I needed a website. I needed a name. I needed to make sure that, you know, my business name was trademarked like that.

I knew, but there were some other things I don't think I realized, like, how are you going to go about getting clients? Where should you, you know, do you need a, a small business loan to start, you know, those types of. I, and I didn't realize what resources were available, um, to small business consultants like myself.

I, you know, now I know, but I didn't know in my first year. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, I got very lucky that email space is. Full of wonderful people. And I had enough contacts that I was able to get, you know, [00:24:00] started pretty quickly, but I, there was a lot, I didn't know, you know, even that I needed QuickBooks for billing, you know, I was sending manual invoices.

Yes. Was a big pain

Matthew Dunn: well, yeah, I, yeah, I'm actually glad you said it, cuz there's a whole there, like there's a whole wealth and stuff there. Like many, if not most people who. Their own, their own thing, of whatever scale. Like there isn't there, isn't a very good blueprint and most people with a business degree and a business degree didn't cover how to, how to build one.

It sort of how to go be part of an existing one, maybe, but all of the, all of the challenges of, of, of doing a new thing and all. Seeming little decisions that you've gotta discover along the way. You know, maybe there is a book on that. Maybe there is a blueprint. There might be there. I didn't find one I, uh, I have not found it either.

Have you read, uh, the [00:25:00] E myth Gerber, Michael Gerber. No, haven't put that, put that on your list. Uh, EIT some I think going, yeah. Michael, Michael Gerber. Yeah. He, he, it's about, it's about how, how to do, do what you're doing, what I'm doing without making yourself completely, uh, completely nuts and, and burning out, um, which is tough.

Cause cuz in a sense, the advice you're given to your clients, right? Look, let me handle the email marketing is advice to turn on yourself. Like what what's running at mocha bear. There really someone else could do, cuz it's in their wheelhouse, it's in their, their passion. Instead of making everything top to bottom, your you like your baby, your problem.

Elizabeth Jacobi: It's tough. It's so it, it's funny you say that because, so in my throat, probably in your six to seven months in, I decided, okay, sending manual invoices and waiting for checks is not going to work. Um, I need to get QuickBooks. So I set it up myself [00:26:00] fairly easy to do, but at some point it became a mess. Yes.

And I spent hours like. UNS sinking things, res sinking things. And then I said the same thing that I say to clients, why are you not hiring someone to fix this problem for you? They'll fix it in a few hours. Yeah. And you'll be spending 12 hours and not picking up a client in that 12 hours. Yep. So I did hire someone to fix it and you know, it's now working fine.

yes. But you know, it's those little things where I just was like, no, I'll do it myself. It's easier. Yes, yes. And you realize it's not ,

Matthew Dunn: it's not. And man, and the, the very personality that's gonna start a business is the personnel is gonna say, well, I can figure it out. I can do it. Um, yeah. Right. Like where almost stand.

I, I, it's funny, you went to the QuickBooks example cuz when you said QuickBooks earlier, a little light went off my head. Over a decade now. And best decisions I made in this business was God bless you, [00:27:00] Sarah, hiring Sarah going. I don't even wanna look at QuickBooks. I don't wanna touch it. I don't wanna look it at it.

I hate it. You do it. Don't like, seriously, give me the reports and just don't bother me, cuz I hate that. I see line by line and she's brilliant at it. Right. And thank you, Sarah, taking that monkey off my back, cuz I I'd never get it done. I'd find 9,000 things to do.

Elizabeth Jacobi: It's so true. And you don't think about that?

Well, time is money. So if you could get someone to spend a little bit of time helping you, it's probably worth it.

Matthew Dunn: yeah, yeah, absolutely worth it. And, and, and. QuickBooks and data sync and, you know, getting all the lines out of the ledgers outta the bank account. Like it's another example of that. It's not an API centric world mess that we talked about before.

I mean, I think some of the bank synchronization [00:28:00] is still that massive hack of like system, a pretends to log in as you and screens, scrapes, webpages. You're like, oh, this is.

Elizabeth Jacobi: Awful. That's scary.

Matthew Dunn: This is awful. we're and we're, we're still running that way. Yeah. Everybody's still running that way. nah. Oh, well, um, okay.

A different switch gears question for you. You are, you, you stay heavily involved in the email space, which is awesome. We all get the, uh, benefit you're on the, the committee from only influencers. That's helping get some more definition to email metrics. I

Elizabeth Jacobi: am. So I love being on that committee. Um, I, I met Jean many years ago when I, I think even before I started milk our marketing.

And when I found out that they were, I've been a member of only influencers for a long time, I, I had a. A boss who was a mentor. And he insisted when I started working for him, that I joined only influencers. And I [00:29:00] continued that membership, even when I nice ended up, um, you know, going off on my own. Um, but when they started the, the metrics committee, I.

Metrics and segmentation is kind of my passion. I'm really into the analytics side of things and not the pretty side of email, but like why email, you know, what's important in the email. What's not. And so I asked about the metrics committee and they invited me to be on it and it's been great. We've done several webinars.

We have another one coming up on specific to segmentation in September. Excellent. Excellent. Or sorry, maybe it's the last week of August. Um, and it's been great. You know, the email world, uh, is they're full of nice people. I think we all help each other out. And when you work independently, I think it's important to be involved in something so you can stay relevant within your field.

And so it's been great. I mean, we went to the I that's where I, [00:30:00] I met you at the conference. Uh, so it was, you know, I think those things are just so important and it's just nice to be around other email marketing professionals who, you know, think the same way or, you know, give different ideas and perspective on things.

To me that's been wonderful.

Matthew Dunn: Um, Earlier guest on this podcast, uh, Dr. ADA Barlett, uh, is on the metrics

Elizabeth Jacobi: committee. Yeah, she's on the committee with me. Yeah. Yeah. She's

Matthew Dunn: great. Yeah. Data cheerful, data scientist, as I recall, yes, very is her tag on. Wow. The two of you would make a, would make a formidable, uh, piece, piece of a committee.

you're, you know, the, the, the small business running a bit, a modest email program, probably doesn't think in terms of things like metrics and, you know, there's a whole bunch of yeah. Um, because, because they matter even at a small scale and matter, even more [00:31:00] at a bigger scale. And, uh, and I imagine we're gonna have to do a lot of continued reformulation.

What what's measurable and how does it matter and how does it inform what you do next as that email landscape shifts around, you know, open rates, being the obvious thing to pick on ,

Elizabeth Jacobi: uh, we can go on a whole different conversation about open rates. It's still the question I get the most. I wanna resend to my openers or my non openers and like, forget about that metric

Matthew Dunn: yeah.

Uh, Yeah, afraid so afraid. So, um, especially, especially if you're not at a massive, massive, massive scale, I think, but yes, let's not. let's not go down the let's not go down that word. It's very inside baseball when you, you know, talking to stuff like there's, there's, you know, 64 people who, who think this matters and, uh, and, and are, are actually gonna gaze a discussion like average podcast list.

The [00:32:00] heck are they talking about? Yeah. Okay. shov that aside next. Uh, is there anything you miss about the corporate and enterprise world?

Elizabeth Jacobi: Um, I think there are some things I miss, but COVID probably would've killed that anyway. Uh, I do miss get sometimes like a lot of the people I'm still friendly with that I socialize with are people that I met through work mm-hmm and going into the office.

I think there are times that I do miss it, but interesting. You know, right now it wouldn't have happened for the. Two plus years anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And I was working from home before that. Uh, so not a lot changed for me, but I think that's the one thing that I do sometimes miss is being, you know, in an, an office environment.

Um, but I don't ever think that I would go back [00:33:00] and, and work for a company. I really enjoy consulting and, and doing my own thing.

Matthew Dunn: Nice. There. There's a, I wanna say season two, which is, it's just embarrassing that I'm probably accurate, but there's a, there's a little moment. Season two of the west wing where, uh, the Bartlett's president watching, watching some of his folks interact at a party and he's like, and I, he just, I love, I love seeing colleagues, you know, being collegial, better written line than that, but that's, that's that thing you're talking about there, that it is that it.

It's valuable to have those collegial relationships and we all did get yeah. Kind of sniped off from that. Those of us already working for home. We're like, yeah, no big deal. I'm already used to this, but it is not going to be the same in work setting, particularly if it's any way digital work setting, cuz you're gonna have colleagues who you'll never, ever meet live or [00:34:00] you'll only meet at conferences and wow.

That's a shift.

Elizabeth Jacobi: yeah, it's such a cha. I was with someone yesterday and they mentioned, um, that their boss has moved to another state and they're not, he doesn't think they'll ever go back into yeah. An office. Yeah. Which I thought was very interesting. I, you know, it, it sounds wonderful that people just moved to wherever they wanted to, but, but.

Um, I don't, I wonder if, and when we will go back to that office environment and I, I do think like, you know, when I worked at, uh, Cheeta yeah. You know, part of how I made so many connections in this field is by going into an office and having lunch together and, you know, hanging out and going for happy hours.

If I was that at that place in my career. Mm. Now I would miss out on, on all of that. How often? I'm glad I had it, but [00:35:00] you know, I think of people who are just starting out and I think that's gonna be a challenge career,

Matthew Dunn: career stage thing. Uh, let's stick with that one. I'll come back to the other thought for a second.

I, I think that career stage observation is very astute, um, and I've, and I've seen articles and analysis that. essentially look new to the workplace. Folks, millennials or whatever are kind of getting shortchange. If they're, you know, go work from your apartment, see you on zoom, how do they, how do they get the mentoring and relationship building and advice and storytelling that those of us who were older than millennials got early in our career by hanging out of the office.

Elizabeth Jacobi: I think it's going to be a challenge because I think of the times I would just walk into another colleague's office and say, Hey, I'm thinking about this. What are your [00:36:00] thoughts? Yeah. If I have to get on zoom with that person, am I going to do it now? I have to schedule a time with them. Yeah.

Matthew Dunn: It's it's intentional.

It's agenda it. Yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth Jacobi: So I don't, I don't know. I. , I'm not sure. And especially in a field in the digital world where things are rapidly changing and, you know, strategies need to be really like, thought about mm-hmm um, especially as things change. I, I don't know how you do that on zoom. I mean, it sounds funny to say, I don't know how you.

Do it dig like in the digital world? I don't know how you do it virtually, but I it's. I think it's just a little bit harder, you know, even at the conference that we were at, I felt like I picked up a lot of ideas by being in a room with other people. Yeah. Where I joined, you know, the, the weekly calls. Um, and I do pick up ideas from that, but not the same [00:37:00] as just that conversation that you weren't intending to have.

Matthew Dunn: Yeah. A couple of a couple thoughts off of that. Um, I'm guilty of citing this book about every fifth podcast episode. So here we go again. um, wonderful book called the social life of information, John Sealy brown and Paul Dugood, which was written before Facebook existed, by the way. And the gist of that book is the way we really learn from each other.

by casual conversation and stories and breaking bread and having beer together. And you don't do that on zoom. And that's the thing, that's the thing that, that, that could be lost possible. Um, a possible slight antidote to that, uh, for the duration of time that, that I've been in the email space where we've been trying to grow campaign genius.

Um, lucky enough to have one of the really experienced folks in the. Basically sign on to mentor [00:38:00] and we have a standing every week, half hour zoom call that actually doesn't really have an agenda. Hmm. I like that. And it's been incredibly valuable to me because sometimes it's a 15 minute call. Sometimes it's a 31 minute call, but we end up with a, Hey, how you doing?

And oh yeah. And owe that new client and, and, and, uh, the casual conversation. , it's not, I need to schedule a call with him so I can ask about X, the, the agenda driven zoom call that you mentioned. Um, yeah, the fact that it's kind of nailed up and it's going to be a casual conversation, has led to a lot more of that casual, valuable, incredibly valuable casual.

Let me bounce this off you. What's your reaction to that kind of stuff. Um, so, and, uh,

Elizabeth Jacobi: are a lot of the people new who are joining new to the email [00:39:00] space.

Matthew Dunn: This is, this is a one on one. This is oh one on one. Okay. One on one call because those group calls, which you mentioned that, that both of us have participated in those are terrific, but they are not one-on-one conversations.

Yeah. Yeah. The one-on-one, you know, small, small group would be interesting. If three or four people had a, had a standing, no agenda conversation. I'm, I'm thinking out loud here, but as companies run the necessary experiments to fill in the human thing, that that remote work has ruled out. There's some not obvious parameters like agenda, no agenda.

Like group size that, that merit experimentation, I think. it's funny.

Elizabeth Jacobi: It's interesting. You say that I'm, I've been a member of a couple of chambers. Um, mm-hmm in LA and they obviously all [00:40:00] went virtual and I found then virtual networking, because they'd throw you in a room with one or two other people to be more helpful than the in person.

Networking where it was like a large lunch or a cocktail hour where you meet the person that you would most likely want to meet is not someone that you would meet. But when you're being thrown into multiple rooms, you're going to meet all 30 or 40 people at some point in that 90 minute call. And I found that to be super helpful.

Um, and I, I felt like I met a lot more people than when I used to go to the in person. Yeah. Once.

Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Well, this is incredibly recursive, but I have found this podcast incredibly fun, useful, valuable for exactly that reason. Right. Yeah.

Elizabeth Jacobi: I, this, I totally agree. Like if you had asked me three years ago to do this, I would've [00:41:00] probably said, oh, well, yeah, but I don't look, you know, when I have time.

Yeah. But now that we're so used to this, I realize that we should have been doing this all along.

Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Well, I've been, I've been, I've been watching the evolution of, of, of, uh, video conferencing for. Quite a number of years in a digital media, my field. And, um, I don't think we would've flipped over to this being so normal, this being the zoom conversation we're on, uh, without that, that forcing function, that the pen pandemic served, cuz I used to kind of bug people.

To try to get them to video conference with me, I've been running a virtual business for well over a decade. Like, well, we could hop on a VI and people would be like, oh, but no, I have to do air and makeup. And I don't have a

Elizabeth Jacobi: camera. I used to be that person

Matthew Dunn: everybody was everybody was that person. And truthfully, it was a [00:42:00] huge pain in the butt technically to set up a decent video conferencing like system.

It still is honest to God. It still is. Yeah. But we've all kind of all of a sudden in a, in a year or two timeframe, everyone had to get at least okay. At that. Why? Because that's the office now. Right. Right. And, and it looks to me like the bar is continuing to go up. I mean, you specifically, you've got your, you've got the zoom blurred background on, but that, that wasn't an option three years ago on video conferencing platforms, it was, it was.

this is it. What you see is what you get. And now, like, I mean, I, because, because I invest time in this podcast, I've got seriously, I've got lights, camera, multiple monitors. Like this is like baby TV studio thing to, to in a really good looking microphone, but, um, baby TV studio thing going [00:43:00] to, to make this work.

Um, and, and it took time in tinkering and investment to make that. Payoff though now is this all feels.

Elizabeth Jacobi: it's so true. Yeah. Being on zoom and even with prospective clients, sometimes they'll say, do you mind if we got on a zoom and I think that's great because I've picked up clients that are not local during this time.

Yes. Because you weren't meeting the local person for coffee anymore. Yes. What's the difference. If we're on zoom or we're at a coffee shop, which we can still talk about your business

Matthew Dunn: which expanded your. Potential market dramatically. Oh, yeah,

Elizabeth Jacobi: it definitely did. Yeah, it's been for me. Um, and I think for others in the digital space, realizing that you just could pick up clients that are not down the street from you or within a 30 minute drive, I think has been super helpful.

I heard that [00:44:00] from a lot. People that their, their business has expanded to areas that they didn't ever anticipate.

Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. And, and some habit change to go, oh, I guess I do have a bigger market, a mindset change if you will. Oh, I guess I do have a bigger market. Uh it's it's taken a while to shift those gears as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Huh. I don't know where that goes. Keep running that translate out. I don't really know, uh, where that ends up. I, I know that some fields are starting to see, uh, national national borders be less a thing, you know, uh, software. Development's an obvious one to pick on, but because developers are so cotton pick and expensive right now, she's like, well, if I could hire a really good developer, who's in filling the blanks and whether it's currency arbitrage or local wages or something like that.

Make that work, maybe [00:45:00] that's better. But I expect if that person with that skillset could shop themselves, eventually they'll go. Yeah, you're gonna pay me what you're gonna pay a developer, regardless of where

Elizabeth Jacobi: I live. . Yeah, I think that's, and I think people also realize you want to find the best talent regardless of where they're located.

Yeah. Which I think previously, like I see this when, you know, I, I see job postings, they're looking for someone either local or remote. Like they don't seem to just say it has to be a local person anymore.

Matthew Dunn: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth Jacobi: So I. We're we're, you know, your, your small world is now getting much bigger.

Matthew Dunn: it is.

And we, we did all of this. We accelerated a good 10 years of shift into one or two, which has been just fascinating to watch, like, yeah, bam. All of a sudden you gotta work that way. I'm also [00:46:00] intrigued by the businesses that, and the businesses functions, whatever, um, that, that can't won't and. uh, go to zoom, uh, the obvious one to pick on.

Oh, wow. That picture's blurry. Hang on a second. That's awful. that? I'm gonna have to edit that out. When in the like whoop whoop, um, education schools, like, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm calling baloney on zoom based education,

Elizabeth Jacobi: baloney. That should not be no on

Matthew Dunn: zoom below it below a certain age. Just it's not, it's

Elizabeth Jacobi: not the same.

Yeah. There's just no way that you can stay focused. I mean, we can't stay focused for an all day zoom.

Matthew Dunn: Oh God, that be exhausting. Oh, gross. Be exhausting. Oh, shoot me. Oh yeah. Oh, I've never done that. And I just would, I don't think I would even say yes, [00:47:00] actually. I've. Have you, have you attended, attended some of the virtual conferences in the last couple of years?

Elizabeth Jacobi: I have. Yes. Um, and,

Matthew Dunn: and did you multitask while they were going on? I did

Elizabeth Jacobi: yeah. um, I liked that they were virtual in that. I don't know that I would've attended. Yeah. I think that there is a need for a virtual track, but I definitely was multitasking, whereas I wouldn't have been, if I was. Person. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is so I guess there's good and bad.

Matthew Dunn: Yeah. I think good and bad. There's a, uh, Linda Linda Stone. I worked with her at Microsoft. She, she sort of, her career is now based on a phrase. She coined this phrase, continuous partial attention and, and to be fair, she coined the phrase. Well over a decade ago and it, it does seem apt to conferences.

Yeah. Like to [00:48:00] virtual conferences now, cuz oh yeah. I'm really glued to all of the three or four things that I'm doing at once.

You know this, you and I are one to one conversation on zoom. I am not multitask. I am not multitask me neither.

Elizabeth Jacobi: Right. Cause why? Because we're having a problem. When the one to one conversation you can't, I'm just listening to a speaker. Yeah. It's easy to multitask.

Matthew Dunn: well, let's pick on it again, those, those, those group, uh, only influencers calls that both of us, uh, frequently attend.

I see people doing some multitasking on those, not a lot, but a bit.

Elizabeth Jacobi: I don't see it as much as I would've thought with that many people on a

Matthew Dunn: call. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, it's cuz they're all so cool and smart. That's what it is. exactly.

Elizabeth Jacobi: But it's only an hour. It's not an all day thing. I think an hour you can easily commit to not multitasking when it's four hours, six hours, which is what some of these conferences [00:49:00] are.

It's a little hard.

Matthew Dunn: Well, and it's four, six hours and it's many, many, you know, sort of little segments and, and, and not everybody is super arresting when they're the speaker, uh, or you're not as dialed into that particular, uh, subject to that particular moment or whatever else. And we're all guilty for the most part of using the, the, the work multitasking device to do the job of this video connect.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got a, I've got a dedicated monitor. My I've got like, I've got the world's best desk there. I said it. Um, but I've got a dedicated monitor above my main monitor. And for these, for these, uh, one to one conversations, like that's the only thing up there in my iPan. Yeah. It, it it's you and me and I wish I could black out me, but then the video.

Cut quite a

Elizabeth Jacobi: few much. Well, I, I think the focus feature on that apple has created where you can make sure [00:50:00] that nothing's like digging on your phone or your computer is great. Yeah. Cause I turned that on before every meeting, otherwise I was seeing emails coming in and text messages and it's just, it's

Matthew Dunn: distracting.

Yeah. Yeah. Are you, are you, uh, are you in, are you in the apple. Like

Elizabeth Jacobi: me, I am. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, I wasn't always, but yes, I am.

Matthew Dunn: I, I, I worked at their big competitor, uh, in the, in the nineties. Uh, so I was like a certified windows. expert. And then when I, when I left a like, can I have my Mac back please? Cause I like it better.

Elizabeth Jacobi: I held onto my Blackberry as long as I could. I don't you

Matthew Dunn: miss that little keyboard? Dang it.

Elizabeth Jacobi: You know, I did for maybe 10 minutes when I switched to the iPhone and then someone asked me one day, oh, could you send. An email for me, here's my Blackberry. And I was like, how do you use this [00:51:00] again?

Matthew Dunn: Hmm. Yeah, I know.

Elizabeth Jacobi: I still very short period

Matthew Dunn: of time. I still miss the actual haptic, you know, touch, press keys and, and I, and, and I still don't type super well. on an iPhone because yeah, the, the, the, so the soft keyboard, um, yeah, yeah. Oh, well, that chip is sailed. This is like, this is what those devices are going to look like in exactly.

for a long time. We're not, we're not gonna change that. And, um, and we all still have email ha on our smartphones uh, and, and, uh, and I think that'll be the case for a long time. Where do you. As we wrap up, cuz I got to take a whole hour of your time here. Where do you see, uh, taking your company over the next couple years?

What do you, what would you like to do with.

Elizabeth Jacobi: oh, that's a good question. Um, I kind of rethink this all the time. Um, [00:52:00] I definitely wanna continue on the path I'm on to, you know, continue to work with small businesses that I don't want that to change. Um, I think I would like to continue to expand, you know, knowing.

That I don't need to work with businesses that are just down the street that I can work with small businesses pretty much anywhere. I definitely want to continue that. Um, and I wanna continue to educate small businesses on email marketing, whether or not they hire me to help them or not. I, I really wanna do more of that to make sure that they're at least aware.

Of what this marketing channel can do for their business. I think that's really important

Matthew Dunn: if there's not a terrific kick butt book on email marketing program for your small business, would you consider writing it? [00:53:00]

Elizabeth Jacobi: No, I had not thought about that, but possibly yes .

Matthew Dunn: Cause seriously.

Elizabeth Jacobi: It's like, I need to think about that one

Matthew Dunn: big, it's a big, big gap in the world.

I can't think of such a book. Uh, there's some wonderful book in email marketing, but they tend to be aimed like, uh, Kathy pays book is terrific holistic email marketing. Um, there go S you call out, but it's, it's aimed at a much bigger scale than I think you're helping your clients. Uh, yeah,

Elizabeth Jacobi: I need to see if there is anything.

I'm not sure that there is, I'm not

Matthew Dunn: sure there is. I'm not sure there is either. And, and, and there's a lot of businesses, if you could sort of, it's not an easy job to do, but like, look, here's the cookbook, kinda what you're saying about starting a business, like here's the cookbook, the blueprint, if you will.

The things that you really should have in place, and it's not platform specific and it's not, [00:54:00] you know, it's vendor agnostic and all that other stuff. But if you're not doing this, do this and it needs to connect to this and to do that, um, cause wow. There's a lot of people who would benefit from that.

Yeah.

Elizabeth Jacobi: I, you know, I'm gonna think about that. I have a client who writes, uh, children's yoga books. Mm-hmm and maybe I'll ask her how she. I'm not sure exactly how she got started in, in writing these books, but she enjoys it. Um, yeah. You know, she had worked, she was working in yoga before all of this, so yeah.

And now she kind of writes and, and leads classes. So I have to think

Matthew Dunn: about that. Yeah. I do think I do think of it. I think, I think that'd be a service to the service to the world. Not a bad, not necessarily a bad, uh, uh, asset for mocha bear.

Elizabeth Jacobi: Yeah, no, mm-hmm I need to find the time

Matthew Dunn: that? Yeah. Well, writing, writing a book and finding the time, um, I've had a couple of folks on this, on this podcast.

Uh, although I haven't had CA pay who I [00:55:00] mentioned as a guest, uh, yet, but Jenna Tiffany was on nine months ago and she had just complet. Writing a book. And there was some other guest who had also just completed writing a book. It's it's, it's, it's interesting to talk to a, you know, busy professional or business owner, say how in the heck did you carve out the time to

Elizabeth Jacobi: do that?

Yeah, I I'd be curious how they found the time. I, I feel like there's not a lot of hours in the

Matthew Dunn: day. Yeah. They made the time, honestly, but yeah. And you know, may call a bunch of books kicking around my head. Uh, yeah, I'm not, I

Elizabeth Jacobi: guess if I could hire some people to take the day to day stuff off my plate that we had originally discussed.

Yes. Then I could find time to write the book. yeah,

Matthew Dunn: there you go. There you go. Well, uh, I, if you do, you have to come back on as a repeat guest so we can talk about the book. How's that for deal?

Elizabeth Jacobi: Okay. That's a deal.

Matthew Dunn: cool. Well, [00:56:00] let's wrap. Thank you so much for the time and the great conversation.

Elizabeth Jacobi: thank you for having me.

This was great. It was a lot of fun.

Matthew Dunn: Okay. My guest today has been Elizabeth Jacoby, founder runner, chief cook bottle washer, uh, and strategist at mocha bear marketing. Thanks. We're out.

Elizabeth Jacobi: Thank you.