A Conversation with Glenn Edley of Spike
Visionary email marketer, coach, car-racer and native New Zealander Glenn Edley was among the earliest members of the Only Influencers email community. He shares his insights on email marketing, and his special enthusiasm for MailChimp, in this rambling, fun conversation. Warning — two friends have a lot of fun even in formal interviews. If you’re using MailChimp, or thinking about MailChimp, you really want to check this one out!
TRANSCRIPT
Matthew Dunn
Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Dr. Matthew Dunn, host of the future of email marketing. And I am especially delighted that my guest today is Glen Edley, CEO of spike. And Glen and I are talking clear across the Pacific because Glenn is in New Zealand. Hi, Glen.
Glenn Edley
Hey, good morning. Good morning.
Matthew Dunn
Good morning. What time is it there?
Glenn Edley
It's 8:06am Yo, yo, my first time for the day.
Matthew Dunn
I'm gonna forewarn, especially if you're listening and not watching this on video, I've had the pleasure of multiple conversations with with Glenn before we've gotten acquainted over the over the past year. So if we do shorthand and reference stuff, and you don't know where it's coming from, it's because we've had a chance to talk before he was one of the one of the first people I thought to have on as a guest. So this is funny. He's also got the most interesting office background and it's not virtual, if someone's just listening, what would they tell them what they'd be seeing behind you, Glenn?
Glenn Edley
although I'd be seeing my workshops, be seeing my classic racing car my Peugeot and, and and whatever other project I've got on at the time seems to fill in the background. So it makes sure that I keep it as tidy as probably one of the tightest workshops around I've been told, but it just has to be right because, yeah, I when I'm on a zoom call, it needs to look good. And it just means that I yeah, I just make sure it's tiny. I finished things. Yeah, and it'll be fun. Cuz it's, you know, sometimes this guy isn't set hasn't moved for a while. And so people did have a dig away about that. It's like, well, what project you are next. Good video, it's also quite good advertising for my business. Because it's Yeah, it's certain right down the side of it,
Matthew Dunn
right? That he's actually in a garage office, right? Like this is this is garage office with, as you said, Peugeot behind you. The first time we talked, I believe was pre pandemic. And the second or third time we talked and like, Whoa, different setting and you had moved, picked up carded and moved, even though, you know, you're in a country that's actually dealt with this. So phenomenally well.
Glenn Edley
Well, you know, for 20 years, people would say to me, and it has been 20 years, said to me, like, Oh, you can do this from anywhere? Can't you know, I don't really think so. People like to meet me in person, like all that stuff. All right. And I know you've been, you know, doing this virtually for forever. So for 15 years, and so I yeah, thanks to COVID I up sticks and moved everyone home. And we won't be going back to an office. I think it was basically just ripping the plaster off. And I think I still got to meet people, you know if they will get by, but on my own terms, and we're getting fiber out here soon. So even better,
Matthew Dunn
or even even better. Well, so just for orientation, and we'll we'll come back to him multiple times as we talk, I'm sure. But can you fill in the the elevator version of spike.
Glenn Edley
Okay, so spike has been around for 20 years. So So spike has been around since August 2004. I've been email marketing since 2001. And so spike is a managed email marketing agency, we're a done for you agency. In New Zealand, I think we're the only one there might be some old ones. But, you know, we've been concentrating on big box retail for the last 10 or so years. And that that finished as people started to move into other other areas of digital that they felt were more important. Which we can talk about, because it's just not. And anyway, so. So I've gone back to my first love, which is I like to talk about this, which is small business and getting the customer databases together. And just helping them communicate with your customers. I feel that email marketing or email is still the best channel to do that. It's private, it's direct. It's one to one. If you think about it as one to one, you can really elevate your communication. So it comes down to I really love communicating with my customers and helping people sell stuff. And when I saw this here was in 2001. Here was a way where one person could communicate with hundreds if not 1000s Tons of people and carry on with their day to day stuff. And at the time I got into real estate. It was my first foray. I had a real estate lady named Joe McClatchy, Harvey's tutoring, sign up as my first client in 2004. And yeah, the agents could list and sell, which is what they should do. And then and then we could keep on contact, you know, regularly and what the thing is, is that the agents that I worked with back then that's still like top agents today. I still know that like one of them sold sold us this house.
Matthew Dunn
There you go. So marketing works.
Glenn Edley
Yeah, it works. Yeah,
Matthew Dunn
it definitely does. One of the things that I know about about you and about spike is that you've got a considerable amount of expertise on MailChimp, like I think recently, MailChimp certified partner, correct?
Glenn Edley
Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And I worked out actually made a bit of a mistake with you, because I didn't realize that I should have been by I didn't even cross my mind, I should have been connecting accounts. So so so to be up, number one, the number one in the experts directory, the you have to have a lot of connected accounts. And I haven't done that. And so anyway, I'm working on that. And I think that MailChimp have given me a lot of opportunity, yeah. To learn even more about email marketing, but also they listen, like I would say that one of the only platforms, the only platform that I work with, who actively listened to their partners, and doing something about it, and it's really great. It means that, you know, I suppose I'm evangelizing it to a point. But I just feel like in the last few years, and it's only last few years now three years, GEICO really, really taken off like that, like, like Ben and Dan, you know, the founders have really started just pouring on the guest to MailChimp as a platform, and it's just getting better and better. So, you know what I talk about Matthew, with MailChimp, is that the runway before you have to leave? And they just keep extending that. Right, right. You know? Yeah, yeah, he's pretty sure I used to be like, we'd have to bang you out of there pretty quickly. Yeah, move you on to something else. Like, I've got my own system that I work with some guys called Green Arrow, based in the States, been working with them for a very, very long time, like using IDs or so. And so but like, yeah, that runway is just getting longer and longer and longer. And, yeah, for the businesses that I want to focus on and work with MailChimp, like, I don't think you have to move, you know?
Matthew Dunn
Yeah. And I would, I would agree with you about to the runway going out, I don't have nearly your depth of expertise in MailChimp. But I have used the platform off and on for Well, well over a decade. Yeah. And I have to say one of the things about MailChimp, they're a real innovator in UI. And that seems like a little thing to talk about. But that's a very, that's a very big deal. It's not easy to make things easy.
Glenn Edley
No, you know what, that's the interesting thing. I actually wrote an article in 2015, which I found actually investing, I was giving them great facts. That commoditized email marketing, and I basically put these tools, these weapons of mass email marketing, and to entities hands, that they hadn't provided the training on how to actually use these tools. Yeah, and basically, a lot of SMEs globally, were spamming like SMEs are still some of the worst spammers in the world. They just don't get it, right. They just, like export out their list. So, or, like MailChimp, actually, I'm making it harder for you to do that. But yeah, it's been an interesting process, because, you know, that's a very short time for them to totally turn everything around and realize that their partners who actually signed people up and and start promoting that you should work with an expert, even if it's just on setup. You know, like, if we can design and build a template for you that you can drag and drop. If we can put like that the key is a marketing calendar. Right? No one has marketing calendars, even some of the biggest companies we work with. Some of them haven't really got a nailed down, I could encounter that they're working too. And so yeah, we help people with that. And the other thing is writing content, which I'll just touch on. As I came up with this idea, I don't know if it's new, but I call it the power of the BCC. So when I see companies, especially a lot of accounting companies, because I've been looking at them lately, and they've all signed up for like busy Inc, and these different businesses, building their websites for them, and have all signed up, and some of them even have MailChimp, I can see that their websites are using MailChimp, but they don't have a newsletter signup, which is okay. It's just such a missed opportunity. But yeah, it's um, gosh, I just lost my train with you, but I was DCC, alright, pounds BCC. Sorry, everyone. So the power of the BCC means that you can have your own unique content in a very, in a very easy way. And basically, what you do is you take the questions that you answer every day in your business, especially if you are a service business. And you can use those as your FAQ. Some of them you will, but actually, you can be, what I want to talk about is, is just have an email address, maybe newsletter at your domain Comm. Just BCC it. And then once a month, a week out before your email is meant to be sent. When you log in there, and you have a look like we do it for accountants, and it means that they are sending really unique content every month, it's easy for them to do. They don't even have to think about it. We just like to some articles, put them into the newsletter. Yeah, because we have a marketing planner. So we can like you know, plan. And then we just they sign it off, we build the emails, test them done. Like it doesn't take long, we can keep the costs down. But the power of the BCC is just such an easy way to answer that question. What are we going to send this month?
Matthew Dunn
Now, I find that I find it particularly intriguing. And let me This is a roundabout way to get back to back to it. But I want to I want to do a roundabout way to get back to it for reason I'm in parts in a previous life, I started doing a lot of voiceover. So I started having to spend the time with you know, mics, and recording gear and stuff like that listening to myself. And I started getting really fascinated with the difference the differences between how we speak and how we write. And here's the BCC angle to that. I would bet that your accounting clients find that that bc seed stuff is you know, it's their voice. It's their perspective, it's their style. And I bet they end up going, Wow, that was a lot less work than if I'd sat down to write it.
Glenn Edley
Yes. Well, I don't even have to do that, Matthew, because already,
Matthew Dunn
it's already there. They've already written it. But but the conscious, you know, I have always said email is conversation or frozen space, right? It's very, it's a very conversational media. And when you say I'm gonna bang off a quick note to Glenn about, you know, next week's podcast, I don't go into vapor lock, as if I were writing an article or or something like that, like, Oh, it's got to be you're just bang it off and go hit send. And, and there you go. And, and it's often much more authentic. And, and much less sort of stylistically bound up than then stuff that you've sent down to officially right. Do you agree?
Glenn Edley
I absolutely agree. And like I just did a, a review of like, 900, about 1000 accountants in New Zealand. And we went through all of the sites, and 38 of them heading newsletter. Right? newsletter, and several of them were the same website. This was talking about the same website. Like I was, like, when I was going through, I was like, I've I come to the same website. Oh, no, the logo is different. The colors are a bit different. But everything's the same. Yeah, everything, even the newsletter was the same. And look, I understand that, like, if, if you want to, like in fact, just the idea of being consistent, and but the fact is, you can be consistent. Maybe it costs you a little bit more money, right? You'll be sending unique, useful and relevant information in your voice. Yeah, to your clients, right. Or to people who potentially want to be your client. So they have like 950 odd or whatever it is somewhere up around who didn't even have a newsletter signup form on their website as I Are you too busy? Yeah. I like cars. So accountants is really on my mind right now. Because I'm even up on my, on my board in front of me my goal for that, but but but I just feel like they are this trusted voice trusted partner even. And they're not. Yeah, they're not looking forward and hey, look, they are actually trying to look backwards. And, and so yeah looking forward to oblivion, which in some ways like an hour accountants right now but the fact is they need to reinvent themselves. Because you know 00 basically takes the place pretty much, you know, anyway, I think. But any business any service business, I mean, I love e commerce, I love selling stuff. I've been doing it for a long time, the whole time. Because, yeah, I like selling stuff. I like sales. I like writing copy. And, and in fact, you know, if there's one thing that people take out of this interview today is that subject lines are the key to getting your email opened. And the thing about that is, is that you've got to remember that the front is trusted. And then the good because you signed up for it right? And then so you trust them to send you an email. But that subject line is going to pique their curiosity. And this is where people need to spend time learning about copy learning about what's going to get someone to open that email using that preheater don't don't just bury like view online in there. I mean, I'm going into the weeds a little bit. Yeah, but I'm very passionate about the top of an email. Yeah. And I know, when someone is just using some standard template, because it says, view this email online. And it's like, it's 2021 no one's doing that. Like, you know, we're all on our phones. 60% of emails are opened on your phone first, right? So, you know, I remember, you know, I remember 2007 I still have my iPhone three, and an Xbox. But I remember that I used to talk about email being like, so the letter was that your letterbox, right? So the placement got to there. And the email got to the screen. So it was like, you know, 18 inches away. And then 2000 to mobile, like your brand. And your message is literally in the palm of your customers hands.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah. And with them seven by 24 to mood.
Glenn Edley
Exactly.
Matthew Dunn
I realized we just we just did one of those shorthand things that I thought we might do, because we talked before Glenn mentioned zero on and if especially if you're listening, that's x er o.com. And what Glen and I talked about zeros at New Zealand company, fantastic, amazing cloud based accounting system. I had happened. I had looked at it years earlier. And my account was like, no, go Don't make me leave QuickBooks like please, I hate QuickBooks. And I'm not knocking into it one of my favorite companies, but QuickBooks and I are not friends and but zeros. Taking a whole bunch of that stuff in automated made it a process. And I think where you're talking about, accountants need to think about the future and change. Like, the more the rules get cooked into the software. The more your advice, understanding perspective, ability to think in the future for my business will matter to you being viable as an accountant. First Year.
Glenn Edley
Yeah, is a fair statement. And why I chose zero is that they have a MailChimp integration, right? There you go. Why and accountants helping the customers? Yeah, who have all of their, their customers and their zero accounting system? Why aren't they using like advising them on how to grow their business? And this is where I think accountants are missing a trick because they are that trusted voice. If you're a zero partner that like we're looking into the integration, it doesn't have amazing reviews right now. So we need to find out a bit more about it, but we know it works. Which is enough, but the thing is that at least zero has thought about that. And then it's like telling the accountants that hey, you could actually be helping your your clients, you know, your customers, businesses grow. And isn't that what we're all about? If I even you and I like let's think about, you know what we're doing with our different businesses. At the end of the day, we're helping our our clients stay in business because I have a mantra that says the longer I stay in business, the longer I stay in business I find that to be true. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, it's been an interesting year or so. Yeah, with what's going on an interesting year, but a year to be able to sit back and have a think about, you know, the future of business for some of my clients. The future of business for me, and communication via email, which is my chosen channel. And I, like I said at the beginning, I still think it's the best channel because it's one to one. It's private, it's direct, it's in your hand. Too many people forget that there's a person on the end of that, right. And so they just took in the books like, I need to get a newsletter. Ah, and then they just tick the box. I got that out. In a marketing plan. Yeah, put some thought into it looked forward. You know, it'd be a lot easier. I mean, we have clients, you know, I'm going to write an article soon about how to send 45 emails a month, without annoying your customers. And because we've done it before, yeah, you know, and we did it by segmentation. And by having and by having rules, business rules that someone couldn't receive more than, say, three or four emails a week. It was Yeah, you could be in the now. But yeah, it's, it's it's an interesting process where I think like, it just not enough thought is given to the medium. And, you know, like, as Mr. McClellan said, do the medium is the message but it's a digression. This just, it's just a book I've got on the
Matthew Dunn
it's funny. I was I had a quick exchange with with della quist. From alchemy works. He, he did he throw McLuhan quote, into a back and forth. Like, I still find McLuhan a gas bag. I know he was smart, but trying to unwind his sentences is maddening.
Glenn Edley
I, like I'm just reading. I'm just reading a book called the lives of the stoics. And it was Cicero. Cicero was very verbose. And then Seneca wasn't so even though they were both kind of very much like fame building, guys. Like they really wanted to be known after that gone. Yeah. It took scenic to unwind all of Cicero's stuff, right? And this is where like, copy is so important. Like, yeah, well, let's go from the Greeks to modern times. Yeah. But it's so important because Seneca will be remembered for his like his very clear direct messaging. And in Cicero, hard to understand, right, like your takes just ages, and then you really got to dive into it. And I'm gonna bring this to email marketing. It's that when you are email marketing, this is this amazing channel where you can actually talk directly to people. And like, be so clear in your thinking, because you actually have time to edit it right? You have time to think about the subject line. Yeah, ABTs, the subject line, right? Like, where else can you do that? I mean, well, Google. But if you're AB testing, we ABTs every single subject, line row, every single one. And the reason we do that is because we're trying to maximize the opens from that all the clicks or purchases, right. So we're testing everything. And you've just got to be so clear, and you're writing and I'm amazed that I was able to tie stoicism to marketing Dooley.
Matthew Dunn
I duly impressed I think that's the biggest chronological leap of any of these
Glenn Edley
3000 years only 3000 years
Matthew Dunn
and said Seneca was he was the tutor to one of the Caesars if I recall here are also a playwright, Seneca
Glenn Edley
Oh, yeah, he was and I was reading that he he wrote this tragedy and that was basically a conversation between him and Nero, his two brothers vying to be Emperor. And it was very clear at the time apparently that that's what it was. And so anyways, yeah, Nero got annoyed. But what's amazing is how much impact some of these guys had and yet they only like, like most of it. So we think we live a long time right? It's just not true. Like Like, I'm just going to digress a bit life is not being meaningfully extended. by anything really. But the way we live our life near the end is obviously a lot improved. You know, these guys back then were living it well into their 80s Yeah, 8488 like, you know, quite old and, but someone like Nero He committed suicide well, because this guy get ripped apart. So he committed suicide. And it's amazing that, you know, like the lifespan, and we're still talking about them today is incredible, right because of their acts, but, but it was the writing and I write a Monday I think about legacy, right. And I do so I've been writing a Monday motivators since 2004. Wow. I never missed a Monday for over 13 years. And then I actually parked it for a couple of years, right? So that's like, six, I had, like, 600 or so. emails, because like every Monday, and so that's a lot of content. Now, why I started it, and maybe this is a tip for people. But why I started my Monday motivator was to keep in contact with all my prospects and clients that I met with something that was interesting. That got me a kick, Saturday awake. But it wasn't about email marketing, right? Yeah, it was just like I so it shows? Well, it just shows like, there's more to you. And I think that too many people get caught up in their email marketing talking about themselves. And this is where the power of the BCC is so important, because these are questions and topics that people are actually interested in. Yeah. And I think that if you do that, you will get people opening your emails. So you know, my Monday motivator? No, it was I also proved with that, that I could send a weekly email, because at the time people say, Oh, no, no, no, no, it's too much too much. Right? And like, and we still have those conversations today, right? Like, people say, Oh, I know, I can annoy my customers. And I'm like, but if you only send monthly, like, that's not really enough. Like I you, and you know, like, I don't know what to send. I
Matthew Dunn
don't know what to send, I don't know what to say. It is and this I'm going to seize on your Monday motivator. And and and your power the BCC for a second. It's like the difference in that content is is is is in the utility is in the use in the value of the content. I think the guy who can't figure out what to say, once a month or even once a week, he's probably not listening very well.
Glenn Edley
Exactly, exactly. He's not he's not listening. He's just he or she is just doing the thing. Didn't do remember Gary Vaynerchuk very long time ago, said you need to listen where people are talking. Right? Yeah, yeah. And so he was talking about Twitter and Instagram, and then on to Instagram and stuff. But the fact is, is that if you own a business, people are talking to you every single day. And you need to listen to them. Yep. And you need to find out what, what those major topics are
Matthew Dunn
once in dealing with stuff. Yeah,
Glenn Edley
yeah. And then talk about it. Like, I think so many people, so many businesses talk about themselves talk about how good they are talk about and it's like, no one's interested, dude, like, no one cares about what's in it for me, what is in it for me? Right? And like, if your newsletter is, is very business focused about your business? Yeah. And then people very quickly switch off. And, you know, they might not unsubscribe sometimes, because I find a lot of people will actually stick in there, because they use it as a as a memory tool for you know, what company they want to use for that service again, later. Right? Right. Right. So that for those people, you want to segment them out, and just seem to them once a month, say, but
Matthew Dunn
that's even back to your back to your accountants who have that trusted advisor position, as you mentioned, I mean, and I'm thinking of my tax accounting guy, great guy, I can work with him for years. I only hear from him. If If I asked him a question, or if it's coming up on tax season, and he sends out the standard, you know, here's all the stuff you need to get together, Mike otherwise, crickets quiet, if he wasn't a great guy, I could easily switch to someone else. But he's also missing a huge opportunity to play a like a more vital role in my business and and, you know, raise the value of the relationship and stuff like that. I think it'd be interesting for him as well. No,
Glenn Edley
yeah, I like that BCC. Kind of, yeah, it's just such like these some of these service businesses, lawyers as well, lawyers and accountants. You know, AI is gonna take the place of lawyers, I could already Yes, right. So I think If you look at five years here, yeah, it's gonna be interesting, right? Because because technology is gonna take over. And so you need to make yourself more relevant. So it? Yeah, I mean, but one thing I wanted to touch on before was about dynamic content, right. And this is where, like, we're talking about interests and what interests people, right. So when people sign up for things they know a lot of people ask what you're interested in. And so what you can do is, is with your marketing calendar, you can have four topics or the four interest this that you segmented your database into seven segments, the database, right? They don't allow your agreement with a and if you could see Matthews faces, it's like, no. But it's about say, and MailChimp makes it really easy, right? Using tags and groups to signify that these days, and they can be hidden groups in the signup form, there's all sorts of things to depending on what landing page they come to, you know, you can have it tagged automatically. But a really simple way we were discussing in our pre interview was about when you send out that email, and you've got these different interests, you can have the one that that person is most interested in, at the top of the email, right, right, such as simple thing to do with dynamic content, things like MailChimp make it easy to do that as well, you've just got to have a tag, build the email, which, which I know is a bit harder than than just normal emails, right? Like, you might need someone to help you with that. But the thing is, is like once you do that, you know and that person's interest at the top. And the great thing is you can automate it, automate this so that when the interest changed, like the tag changes, you know, they automatically get the other interest at the top, people just aren't taking advantage. People businesses aren't taking advantage of just a simple process that could really like up, you're up your communication game. Yeah,
Matthew Dunn
I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to throw something back at you. And that just occurred to me, as you're describing that on no argument about the value of doing that. And you're really saying, Get, make make your content aligned with your customers known interests, where you've got that it has struck me, particularly over the last couple of years, in in starting to work with email platforms, that they're not necessarily helping with that kind of piece of the solution, I have yet to see an email editor, for example, that says, build your content sections that will take care of rearranging it to suit the tags, if you've got to, it's like, wouldn't it be easier for for, let's say, MailChimp, to engineer that. So it becomes kind of an automatic preference or choice for customers, because you have to fight with your HTML, or know what the heck you're doing. Yeah, you do that simple rearrangement. Like it, there's still some technical, technical challenges and, you know, writing and content and copy challenges in doing something that's obviously valuable. Yeah. And, and I look, you know, I've used 100, email editors, they're almost all monolithic, you know, our job is to help you make this one, this one template that you're going to send look good. And I've yet to see one that really does the job that you just said is useful.
Glenn Edley
That's true. I okay, so we just did a job. Just last year, there was eight sections. And there's, there's several 1000 people in the database, or finance company, and we had to rearrange all of those. So we had to use dynamic content. So that each of those eight sections, I can't remember how many actual segments in the database they were. But that but they there was like 30 different ways that they could be put together. Yeah, but MailChimp. If we I think if we hadn't been using MailChimp, it would have been a lot harder. So I feel like mountain airport. It was with the end really concentrating. I feel like they've got a massive development team to write so and they like I was saying like they earlier like they listened to partners like myself saying, This is what we this is what our customers are asking for. And so we were able to do that in Belgium. And the thing that was really fun was the testing. I'm being sarcastic. Yeah. Yeah. Basically, we had to test every single variation of that email. Yeah. Yeah. That was
Matthew Dunn
that was difficult for me. Yeah, permutation complexity.
Glenn Edley
It was a it was amazing, right? We got it done. But it was, but that was probably the most, that was the most complicated, dynamic content thing we've done for a long time inside MailChimp, right? That that or anywhere that was, but we got it sorted. And then it all came down to the data. And that data was so clean, right? Like,
Matthew Dunn
was it Really? Wow. Oh, yeah.
Glenn Edley
Yeah, we spent ages with them, making sure that everyone was tagged correctly. Every and so when we sent out those emails, yeah, everyone got the right stuff. Because it was instructions on how to move. There, were rebranding a finance tool, and you had to like move from one to the other. And it was like quite a process. And so yeah, these instructions were based on what level of retailer you were, you know, it was by your we use MailChimp for that. And it did work out. So I was surprised, but at the time, but then I was like, wow, this is what so this is what gave me trust that MailChimp is is one listening to its customers, because I know they go out and talk to actual MailChimp, customers. Yeah, you should.
Matthew Dunn
Still does that. Right?
Glenn Edley
He does. He does. Yeah, well, yeah, he probably does have virtually no paper, which isn't as good as like, I know, I have
Matthew Dunn
a cup of coffee with the customers or even better wine, I
Glenn Edley
think. Because then you get the real answer. Right? Yeah. And this is where, you know, people need to see eyes especially need to get down and listen to their customers, because they're not often doing it. Right. They're kind of like getting this information filtered up to them. Now I'm sure they can make these high level things based on where they want to go. But But an actual fact getting out and actually talking to a customer. I know that being will go you know, being just not who one of the owners of mountain has gone and talked to people who have free MailChimp accounts.
Matthew Dunn
Nice, smart.
Glenn Edley
Yeah, I think that's amazing. Like, that's really so. So anyway, so yeah, I think that so far, we've done some interesting stuff and cleveo in that, but really, for us like MailChimp was the one where we're able to do some really hard, hard, dynamic content stuff that and it was yes, I mean, they had to use us, right, they wouldn't have been able to do this internally. Yeah, yeah. But, but that was able to do it. But
Matthew Dunn
but but the platform, the platform could do what you envision,
Glenn Edley
did it. And by the way, I don't think it could have done it a couple of years ago, like this was a new thing. In fact, if you look in MailChimp, they've got just new things coming up all the time, like they they tested through the beta accounts, they've got an updated preference center, you can do a lot more there. There's some really cool stuff happening. In the end, it's like, I kind of have wasted my, my, my flag with them, because they just support partners the best, like I was saying they listen. But um, you know, I think companies like you know, like, like campaign genius, you know, what your company like being able to even add to that is I and I know you and I talk about this a lot I have done is trying to find for me, it's trying to find a client who really wants to like go above and beyond. They just did she like it is hard. I
Matthew Dunn
mean, certainly the I want to talk about you know, spike in your experience in the marketplace but but but in terms of real time content campaign genius and the quest to push email a bit in terms of in terms of what's possible in terms of the technical boundaries in terms of the data driven boundaries, if you will. Yeah, um, one we've seen repeatedly that companies don't really have the data house in order so that's that was the reason for my surprise it when you said the finance company really had that sorted out frequently. Excel month of work,
Glenn Edley
by the way,
Matthew Dunn
yeah, yeah. It's it's a lot of work right. And we're, you know, we're all guilty of it. None of us has our CRM or email database or anything just perfectly squared away. And that's frequently you got to have that before you start doing other and fancier stuff. The second one though, I find email practitioners on the fact that they seem so overworked trying to do, did do this stuff. Well, that's been tested. nicly possible for a decade or more, yeah, that you know, newer, even more cutting edge tools and techniques. It's like I can barely get to that. I mean, you've got one one good dynamic content story here. But I'm betting, you don't you don't end up getting to do that all the time. Because just standard blocking and tackling emails hard enough?
Glenn Edley
Well, it is. And like, always, I've talked about this recently with you, but I was having a conversation with my dad last week. And I said to him, I'm still I kind of was having a bit of a complaint. And I said, I don't I'm still having the same conversations I had 20 years ago. And he's like, how is that possible? And, and like, a bit of context, my dad in sales for a long time. And he yelled to him, that was like, what, like, how are you having the same conversation? And it's because people still haven't grasped email marketing. And in fact, if we looked at the world, and about how many, and how many businesses have websites even Yeah, like it is not a high percentage, right? I remember. Some stats came out in New Zealand, 37% of New Zealand businesses had websites now, that's several years ago. And so it's maybe moved up a bit higher for that. But then if you think about that, you know, and it's like, why do I need to be online? And why do they need to be online sometimes as the future of their business right now, other people thinking? I did, I did a lot of work. A little while ago, I really concentrated on people who had no database. They had very successful businesses, right, very successful businesses. And they were looking at selling their business. Oh, well, because that because as these baby boomers come through, right, well, that's what they're looking at succession plans and things like that. And what I find with those businesses, is that they're very heavily weighed on relationships. Yeah. And the data is actually in someone else's outlook, or, you know, like, it's nice. Yeah, and Someone's here, right? And so, you know, that means that your business is worthless, because because I always say that, that the value of your businesses and your customer database, but more so the consistent communication with that database, like if you had two ecommerce businesses, right. And one has been sending out three emails a week, and are both turning over half a million dollars, right, turning out the same amount of money, but once three times a week, and it's built up this large database, and I kind of did you can see that doing well, the open rates are getting better, like yeah, the other one is kind of been doing half a million for the last few years, right? They haven't really moved or growing, they send an email a month or you know, like, they're not really met a month, a base, they're just relying on, on people remembering their shoes and coming back. I'd be buying the one that is consistently because communicating because I can see that their value is going to go up because they're actively working on growing their database. That's it. The other one is just a stagnant business that is just going to go down. And that's where all of a lot of businesses globally, yeah, about baby boomers because a global you know, they are just being closed up. Right. We're losing a lot of IP.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, we are we are and and we particularly got to shove in the last year, like with pandemic we got to show up online. Yeah, I suspect there's a substantial chunk of, of people who might have hung on maybe they were gonna adapt a little bit more, maybe not, but now it's just like, Oh, I think the bus left. Yeah, baby, it'll just retire or whatever.
Glenn Edley
A lot of people retired last year. They definitely did. You know, um, anyway, so and so. And so those business were worthless, they were so hard to pass on. Because they Yeah, they had no customer database. Yeah. You know, I just I find that really an like it's it's annoying in some respects, because like gays were very valuable businesses, you know, providing really good service. And you go and look for them are not Yeah, Terry Terry's retired, right. Okay. Who is taking it over? Oh, no one.
Matthew Dunn
No one because he couldn't, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, cuz if you don't know, yeah, I it's a funny phenomena and and if you're getting if you're a business getting acquired these days I was having this conversation with someone else. For sure one of the tangible, measurable things that's going to determine your business value, is that, that list that attention and relationship asset, it is.
Glenn Edley
Absolutely,
Matthew Dunn
that you can point to and say it's, you know, it's this big, it's this often. And if you don't have that, if it's all in someone's head, yeah, it's a little, it's a little harder to meet. There. It is.
Glenn Edley
Yeah. And you know, what, a lot of the time it comes down to it was just, like, they just, you know, they've been burned. A lot of times by SC, all my students, but let's just say there's some other digital channels, where the practices of the people in those channels have been less than just less than I guy. Yeah. dodgy, you can almost say, and, and a very clear sign for me is when you when you don't have access to an account, because if I don't have access to an account, yeah, that means that something's going on. And, and a lot of these businesses have been burned, and they just don't get it either. It's so So anyway, I know, we've we've digressed of it, but email marketing, and database marketing and permission marketing, that phrase coined by Seth Godin, you know, is, is very much a it's a very relevant conversation in 2021. Yeah. And we've got to keep talking about it, which is why Yeah, I love our normal conversation. Our conversations are not recorded. Because Because, you know, I, yeah, I find that email marketers are the only people general are the only people talking about this stuff. You know, like my friend, James, he, you know, he's a digital strategist. And so but he's all about that. He's all about managing that traffic, you know, and growing the traffic coming to the website, he really focuses on that. And he relies on me to, to communicate with that communicate and convert that traffic light, beyond the first sale, you know, like welcoming people on board, like what you can do the conversations that you can create, and I know that sounds big, but at the end of the day, it is a conversation, because someone came to your website. They went, Oh, this looks interesting to me, or, hey, that's a good deal. If I sign up and I get something off. Yeah. And then they sign up. And then and then crickets, or which happens so much. Yeah, people get the normal like MailChimp or cleveo, sign up confirmation email, their branding in it, nothing, nothing,
Matthew Dunn
nothing
Glenn Edley
here. This is Nokia. And so you know, and then you start this like, Hey, welcome to the revolution. You know, we've got a client coming on board who are revolutionising cleaning products, it's gonna be very cool. But it's like, welcome. Join the revolution. Welcome to the revolution. And like, to many people also don't like they're not congruent with the messaging. Yeah, right. This Do you know what, though? It's just communication, right? And it's and an email to me like as soon as the best channel for
Matthew Dunn
communication? Well, let me let me let me move us back like two minutes and to come back to this with with even more frame around it. This is not it's not a political podcast. So I'm just going to make this an abstract example. When the the immediately past US president shot his big mouth off enough to get us finally get his Twitter account suspended. From a permission and database marketing perspective. It was a multi billion dollar asset poof, gone, gone. Among other things, he never owned it. It wasn't his asset.
Glenn Edley
So it's a good point, such as, like, oops,
Matthew Dunn
and and and and now I read an article the other day that said, trying to do some you're trying to do via email, not same effect. Like if it's an email list, at least it would be his list. And I hate to say but you know, your Facebook page with a zillion followers, your Twitter account with a bunch of big like you don't own that you don't own that you're paying for permission to keep doing it. But for sometimes very arbitrary reasons or even invisible reasons, someone else can go. Sorry. Gone. Yeah. And I've heard of businesses that have lost, like, we don't know why. But suddenly we don't have access to x, like, because it wasn't actually yours in the first place. And one of the things that makes me and I, it struck me why why do you like email? Well, a bunch of reasons. But one of
Glenn Edley
them is, you stay in control. Yeah, absolutely. It's yours to pick do it. Even if it's sitting in mountain, it's still your database or your database. Yeah. Don't have ownership of your customers. It's not. They'll tell you how to make money out of your customers, and maximize and give you the tools. Yeah. And it's yours. You can export that out whenever you like, and move it to somewhere else. Right. And I think that is such a good point. Because apparently, like, you know, email marketing, like, with Obama, they had a big email list as well. I actually, I probably like you, I actually go and have a look at what people are sending. And Trump raised more money. And I will mention him because it was in this thing, Trump and invite him. Trump was raising more money, because he did actually have like a decent sized email list right there. Dad built on raising? Yes, yeah, that was from before. Yeah. And I hadn't been using it for a while. And then like, there's all this delivery stuff going on. And then but but he, yeah, he was using it to raise money. But man, he was burning these hounding
Matthew Dunn
that list to death threats, like, six, eight times a day. Yeah. And it's
Glenn Edley
because it wasn't big enough. Yeah, that is that like, if he had, like, if someone had been there focusing on that even more, like, every every tweet, you know, I sign up to my list.
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, there you go. Good example,
Glenn Edley
you know, like, he could have been actually growing that exponentially. And Dan didn't, and he didn't, and it's like, you know, marketing. Marketing is, is taking advantage of every contact point with your business, to get someone to tell him to share the message, and then get them to sign up to your list. Like, if you're not doing it, like every touchpoint is a marketing opportunity, every single one from the person answering the phone to the website. So yeah, whatever else you've got going on to each sale, you know, each page. Yeah, yeah. People. I said The thing is, like, there used to be the classic email marketers answer. It depends. And the fact is, is that it does, but every single email marketer, I know, now like yourself, right? You mentioned dela? Yeah. Like, like, Emily Ryan day, Dennis and these other friends of mine, like, like, you know, so passionate about email marketing, and so passionate about the, the communication that you can have with your customers. And, and I just find it. Like, it's like this. Yeah, this podcast is called the future of email marketing. The future of email marketing is super bright. Because, you know, those rules are being changed all the time. I'll give you a good example. I don't use my Facebook ad account. I don't know what I did. But for some reason, it was I was locked out. I was like, wow, I was like, how am I locked out? I haven't used it. And then our other accounts are like online. So I asked for a review. And I don't actually care because I haven't used it for eight years. I can't even I don't use it. So I found it very odd. But the fact that Facebook can just change the rules. Yes. Yes. And and then Google can just change its algorithm. I don't know if you remember when panda came out. Google's whole like people lost. Potentially. Yeah, I didn't actually lose it because then made it but potentially million 10s and 10s of millions of dollars.
Matthew Dunn
Oh, yeah. There were there were there were businesses that just got hamstrung, actually, a friend of mine ran it distinct little business, who their service was helping nonprofits be effective on Facebook. I knew were like the best at it. They got to the point where I believe they helped the Chan Zuckerberg initiative, which is a nonprofit launched their thing. But after the Cambridge analytical scandal, yeah, Facebook went timeout, everybody who's got you know, the deep data access to do extra special sauce stuff. Nope, you don't anymore. And my friend's company was just like, poof, like, wow, they got they got folded because they built their house and somebody else's Foundation, so to speak. I'll give you different pieces. Apple the same thing. And this may be only relevant to the like highly technical on to listener or viewer. But if you are developing systems and software and you think that Facebook API's Twitter API, something like that look like a look like a viable way to expand what you do. My honest caveat is be very, very, very judicious about that. Because the overhead, the bureaucratic overhead, the time overhead, the developer overhead of using those is actually quite high. Like we got to the point where we decided that we would not do anything involving Facebook integration. This isn't an anti Facebook point, there was like, there was so much bureaucracy, repeated over and over, in the job of getting and keeping permission to use those things. It wasn't worth the paperwork, like literally wasn't worth the paperwork. Like, again, I still get rogue emails going, Oh, well, such and such it uses this API is no longer you know, we're not going to let you unless you reapply like Yeah, well, we don't use it. And I don't really care about your application anymore. But here's the point, in contrast, with email, email, built on published open standards, like, you know, we did, we did work to do things like live split testing of content in email, one of the reasons that we could make the decision to do that huge dev work was because nobody, there's no one company arbitrarily controlling that it's like standards that a whole bunch of companies work with, that we're all going to agree to keep supporting. So giddy up, I could take the risk without without, you know, the arbitrary, someone else yanking the rug out from under me.
Glenn Edley
Yeah, that's true. I just, and this is why I love these conversations, because I just remember why I like email so much. Yeah. You know, like, because sometimes it's been a hard year. And it's been like, why am I doing this? This is why I'm doing it. Yeah, there's my other mantra, you know, consistency, trust, loyalty bars, and barbecues. You are consistent with your email marketing, you actually do what you said you're going to do when they sign up, which you need a marketing plan for, and the power of the BCC. And then that builds trust, because not many people actually do what they said they were going to do, right. And then that builds loyalty, because you're providing good information relevant, you know, you're doing what you said. And then bars and barbecues. That's when your either your service or your product is either creating the stories for people to talk about or bars and barbecues, and use the best referral method known to man called word of mouth, and email marketing, and even social can superpower that, but it's just not the same as someone actually telling you. And human human beings, by the way, are wired for that we love being able to help our fellow man. And if we've got someone that we can go, you should talk to. Yes, yes. Right. Yeah. And that's where we need to either create stories or share stories that people can talk about an email is just such a good medium for that, right? Yeah, I know, we could probably have a couple of podcasts on this. But this is where things like MailChimp, making customer journeys easy. You know, all these different little dynamic content that you can do, like, you know, based on interests, or based on the products that you bought? And like, like recommendation engines are never perfect, right? And this is why if you don't know that, if you're buying something not for you, on Amazon, make sure you mark it is a gift, because otherwise, I'll start sending you a recommendation. Oh, you just you just clarify. You just clarified
Matthew Dunn
something you keep showing up in web browsers. Thank you.
Glenn Edley
Do you know what like? So if the base company recommendations? Well, yeah, relies on you to do that to see and your recommendations? Yeah, I do think the book recommendations are very good, though. But, but apart from that you put the wrong thing in. Yeah, until you buy your next thing that's relevant to you. So you know, Mark is a gift. But yeah, it's like human beings. And this is the other reason, you know, we get to communicate via email via this one to one channel. It's a great opportunity. We need to treat people's email addresses like gold because they are. To me, they are like the driver's license of the future, basically, right because they follow you around. People don't change their personal email addresses as often as people think they changed. Work addresses but not their personal
Matthew Dunn
address. Interesting, interesting. You know,
Glenn Edley
this is why the future of email marketing is so bright, because those email addresses are following people. And if we treat them with the respect that they deserve, we're gonna build really, really good channels really loyal customer databases. And, and, and like stay in business for longer
Matthew Dunn
in actual relationships what it occurs to me that the social media bubble and the wild wild west of data and privacy like that's that's coming to an end, right you've led legislation is always a signal that that finally something's getting to be top of mind, right because legislatures don't move that fast. But there's not a nation that's not going Hang on a second, privacy data control. Like we're all thinking about that. So I, you know, the the social media platforms that sort of flourished from everybody ignoring control over their own data, you're gonna have a much bigger struggle, email, as old fashioned as it is, has stayed in the I'll hear from you, if I say, you can talk to me, and I'll cut it off. If you don't like the email recipient has stayed in control, leave idiots spam aside, like you've stayed in control of that one to one as you said, relationship the whole time and and now that we're starting to realize that from a business, asset perspective, control of your control, someone else controlling your list is not good see earlier conversation about Trump and from a consumer perspective, aggregate noise to death on social media and and and I think we're realizing that we need to take a little more responsibility for our own intake as well. I do suspect emails got a real growth path ahead
Glenn Edley
of it. Well, yeah, that kind of harks back to my stoicism that's taking care of my inside my indirect, but like, you just I think one of the biggest challenges facing email marketing is going to be privacy. And the reason that is because and this might just seem totally off the wall to the listeners hear is that young people keep things more private than what we think. And, and and they are moving away from platforms that that don't take their privacy seriously. And it's a it's, it's an interesting move, right? Because we don't think about young people as being private, they share everything. It's like, no, they actually don't like sharing things amongst their friends. But amongst their friends, yeah. You know, they're not wanting they're not on Facebook. Like, you know, they're not on, they might be on Instagram, but it's a it's a private account. And you know, what I mean? So things and when things, get out of those of those accounts, say like that is that is such a, like a breach of trust. Yeah, that is right, like huge breach of trust, right. And so, for me, like, I think getting the data that we need to see more personal email could potentially get harder. So that's why we need to be thinking about the best way to engage and like and get the responses we want. Because, like, you know, cookies being taken out all these things that are happening. Yeah, obviously, it's gonna get harder. And it amazes me like, yeah, we used to think that young people posted all the stuff, no, no generation Zed kind of, well, whatever it was, did that millennials don't, you know?
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, and and taking their beat taking the behavior of the first couple of waves of digital natives. And, and assuming that that behavior would continue, as they as they aged? Was that looks a little bit silly in the rearview mirror. I mean, I've got I've got sons in their 20s. And I think that I'd say they'd be like, I don't have time to post all that. Crap. I've gotten, you know, jobs responsibility to life and other interests in and eight. I just don't need the noise. Like it's the indulgence of adolescence to go live in public. a certain point, he just don't want to bother anymore. As you grow up.
Glenn Edley
I have to say, like, I am so glad we didn't have social media when I was young. I agree. I just think I just think we got away with and got to do some things that
Matthew Dunn
we photographed, among others.
Glenn Edley
Although I had some photographs, so something's wrong, just like was I doing it like like, what were you thinking? I've kept them as reminders. Oh, what I think like, but it's a photograph. Like it's not on some website somewhere that send your kid you know, and so, yeah, like I think about my, my nine year old daughter wants a YouTube channel. And she creates her own YouTube videos in iMovie thanks. mainly thanks to COVID actually like, like, like, like locked down. She got very creative. I showed her how to use iMovie for a little bit. Yeah. And when she was eight, you know, she ran with it her girlfriends were doing. We're making movies with zoom at eight years old, and I'm like, wow, wow, yeah. Am I doing? I just showed her like a template. And she just ran with it. And I was like, Wow, so creativity wise, like, what are they gonna be doing as well because Holy mackerel, that's just like, that's, you know, that's next level digital native. You know,
Matthew Dunn
here's a prediction, right? I, I wouldn't be surprised to see. back into it. snapchats big innovation was amnesia, right? They're like, Oh, right. There's huge value on I'll post it but it's gonna it's gonna evaporate and disappear. You know, someone may come up with this novel idea called privacy. Say, they'd say, if your daughter wants to exchange stuff with her friends within their group, we enable that we don't you know, we don't look at it. We can't look at it. We don't control it. They own it. All of this stuff and like ironclad guarantee,
Glenn Edley
or you mean Gmail, right? You're talking about Jamie Yeah, well yeah.
Matthew Dunn
I mean, if there's you know, entrepreneurs out there want to invent the next thing like good old fashioned How about civil media? Am I not enough with social give me civil again?
Glenn Edley
is interesting. Like my my wife and their girlfriends to chat like Gmail chat a lot, like just live in their email. And it's like, This isn't like they do have one whatsapp group. But messenger, you know, and I've seen like Facebook spun out messenger, I think that's a future proof of the business actually spinning it out. Yeah. Just for the time when they do actually get split up, but messenger and like creating those groups, at the end of the day, all they are is email groups. And if you think about that group that you and I belong to code only influences right right. Like those old list email list tools, like they are so good like subscriptions making a comeback now right like there's so many people making money out of thanks but the guys who know the guys who like Frank and all these like to get mark it isn't that they they just know that it's all about the list. It's all about the list. And I've never stopped you know, what's the other guy launch?
Matthew Dunn
Yeah, Doug, he lives in he lives in Durango actually lives in my hometown on Yeah, the launch the launch guy? We're done. Yeah.
Glenn Edley
Yeah. Hey, man, he's so good. But like those guys, like it's all about the list. And you know, if people actually like stopped getting taken in, by the, by the, by the glitz of this and all but it's I can just post on Facebook. Like, no one's seeing your stuff on Facebook. Right? Like, like, literally no one is saying your stuff on Facebook, maybe one or 3%? Yeah, the 3% of the people who like your page will see that post, right. However, in saying that, when we post on Facebook at the same time as we send an email that definitely lifts engagement, like we've tested that it just loves engagement in the emails.
Matthew Dunn
Oh, Glenn, you just froze. Here we had this flawless recording. Going let's, let's
wait and hope he comes
Matthew Dunn
back. Okay. Hopefully the editing team can drop this section out. We'll do a clip out and if Glen comes back, we'll pick it up from there. Although the two of us true to form have gone on for an hour and a quarter already. Just gonna leave that running.
Glenn Edley
Was this was that the zoom Gods telling us that we'd spoken for too long. Well, I
Matthew Dunn
was I was thinking that you were like, oh, man, he did it again. Yeah, get by. We should probably wrap but I'm glad you I'm glad you came back because you were writing you're right in the middle of something and you froze like this?
Glenn Edley
Ah Sure.
Matthew Dunn
On a good read on if nothing else, I mean your mark this episode for small medium businesses that are thinking, you know, thinking about email one, yes, of course to it's absolutely critical to do business value. Three, it at least in the US, MailChimp has such an such a great strong brand with small businesses that I think the I think bigger ones don't necessarily realize what range of needs MailChimp can meet.
Glenn Edley
Yeah,
Matthew Dunn
I agree. And, you know, especially, you know, learning from you in the past, you know, in the past year about just how capable platform is and how fast it's expanding that capability. Like, okay, if we've got a medium sized business out there, do not rule out MailChimp and say, it's, you know, it's just for small bananas, so to speak. Alright, great.
Glenn Edley
I mean, there's people in there with like, you know, millions of wow customers, right? So, and, and hey, they'll do they'll, they'll help you with the pricing too. So, once you get to a certain thing, like you're, you've actually got your own MailChimp team basically working with you, right? So on delivery. No, we've had like delivery experts working with us. For our bigger clients, there's a lot of stuff that you can do within that platform. As usual, like, I don't know, if someone is gonna want to listen to speed, and then at double speed, they might not understand me, but it's funny that, you know, we're, we're looking to, you know, reach out, reach more into the US market. And it's, you know, because I think that our time zones and everything, like actually, when people understand it, they're like, oh, okay, that actually that actually does work. Because, you know, we can we can organize a lot of stuff and it doesn't really matter what coast you're on either because it seems we can always work at different times of the day. But, you know, the one thing for me is that New Zealand is a small market. So I need to be talking to a, you know, an email marketers, like I've proven to myself, we can work with anyone anywhere. And so yeah, the fact that you're in Seattle and I'm in the backwoods apparently apparently I live in rural Auckland. I don't either
Matthew Dunn
I'm in rural Washington so
Glenn Edley
let's Yeah, even though even though we like five minutes, or Yeah, we're not far away right. So from a from a town but only a curious call it rural By the way, you know, then I can charge you more to bring it to you.
Matthew Dunn
Ah, up okay. You pay the same freight I do. It's like service service calls have whatever it is automatic.
Yeah,
Matthew Dunn
I need someone to fix x. Okay, that starts at 100 bucks.
Glenn Edley
It's literally like a mile and a half. And I'm gonna say a mile and a half down the road is where the I'll say two miles down the road is where the border is, basically. Yeah, I'm on right now.
Matthew Dunn
Looking out the garage window at least. Hey, I want to close with a speed round. Three questions. You ready, guys? Dogs cats both or neither? Dogs got dogs. But dogs your dogs? Okay, awesome. Name a favorite place.
Glenn Edley
Oh, favorite place?
Matthew Dunn
Hi, Tom. Nice. I like that favorite book or author.
Oh,
Glenn Edley
that is a toss up. But um, if it's one, I'm gonna say The Hobbit by JRR Tolkien.
Matthew Dunn
And after my own heart, yeah. Which kind of revolutionized the tourism industry and you're already beautiful.
Glenn Edley
Yes, absolutely. But I just say like, as a little aside to that, like, you know, I don't say that my my the other books I read in my favorites, but I have to say I'm really enjoying lives of the stoics by who's it by Ryan Holiday and Steven, Hannah's late, mostly because I when I introduce my Ryan
Matthew Dunn
Holiday,
Glenn Edley
yeah, yeah. And what he wrote daily stoic, so that's bad, as well as egos the enemy and all that stuff. But the cool thing about it is that it actually tells you I did a little bit of Latin in school, right, like a couple of years, but it tells you how to pronounce the names correctly. And I love that. You know, I love that I think even talking on a gave you an idea, but it was like, I think like, the fact the fact that like the arginase is like I know how to pronounce that. Because it looks it looks like died. Genie died genies or something. Right? Like, it doesn't look like Dr. Jennings. So um, yeah, that's, that's my that's one of my favorite books. At the moment. I see that what do you know why I see the hobbit though, is because I noticed the speed round. But that book had such an impact on me. It was a big thick book. I read it when I was very, very young. And I recently wrote it while I'm writing a book list of all the books that I either read several times, I've had an impact on me and I've written why. And that one, basically number one, that and then it's by Stephen King, which frightened the shit out of me. But, um, me and all my classmates. When we were like, 11 why that was just why did reread that book. Yeah, hi, terrify.
Matthew Dunn
Yes, you Well, yeah, Steven keys. He's actually remarkable. You look at you look at the sheer number of things that he's written in the man's discipline, as a writer, like he still sits down and pounds it out every day. Yeah, impressive.
Glenn Edley
So tell I've really enjoyed this, Matthew, and I know that you and most email marketers enjoy talking about email marketing and I about you and I, we digress. So I am actually going to start a podcast or I am too which I'll, we'll once it's actually up and running. We'll get you on to that because especially talking about the future of email marketing, but real-time content, you know, like what are the things that we can put into emails that people aren't thinking about? You know, and and hopefully, stop have maybe having some new conversations with our customers instead of the same ones.
There you go.
Matthew Dunn
We'll wrap it up. My guest has been Glenn Edley, CEO of spike. And if you're thinking about email marketing and wants some help, go to spike.co.in z and connect with connect with Glenn and his team there. Glenn, thanks so much. It was it was a I knew it would be fun, but it was huge fun.
Glenn Edley
It was awesome. I have a great day but see you later. Bye.